Judging Guides and Color Pictures

[Patrick H.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Patrick

You seem to understand the process on this matter. Just an inquire are all the NCRS manuals in the same digital format? My reason for ask is that short run printing may be an economical option to copy and have color without the extended added cost. In this day it would be prudent to examine the option of direct digital to hard copy vs the old copy to copy method. Another option is the binding of manuals vs the current method. Maybe not. I don't know the who, what, and whys, but something for whom ever is involved with manual creations to look into. My daughter is involved with digital printing and suggested that Kinko's copying is a big expense and print on demand print should be looked into. The quality is much higher and DOES have color capability. All kinds of binding or leaflet are available too.

I don't know if you are the person to direct this to but it seem you do have some knowledge of the current situation.

Gene,

I agree completely with what you're saying. Unfortunately I'm just one of the team working on the 70-72 manual, though it's not my first time around. I do printing of my own (stickers/labels) so I probably know just enough to be dangerous.

The key is whether or not we can get anyone of the "higher ups" in the NCRS to listen to us.

Patrick

[Mark E.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

My suggestions for NCRS:

- Fix the editing mistakes and improve the print quality of the Judging Reference Manual and the JGs. They currently have typos, omissions, syntax, spelling, and formatting mistakes, and the fidelity of the print is low. Replace the AIM and hand drawn diagrams with detailed photos. Addressing quality and accuracy is a higher priority than adding color, IMO.

It's frustrating and surprising that a car restoration club doesn't offer a photo gallery of its reference cars. So:

- Publish a set of books with lots of high-resolution, detailed color photos of cars worthy of being a reference. For example, how about a book titled The NCRS Crossed Flag Corvettes: 1953-1962 . This could be a significant revenue source for NCRS. If it had numerous, high quality, detailed photos of each model year on quality paper in a large format, I would pay over $150 for each generational volume.

- A less expensive alternative to books is detailed photos of reference cars on the website. No revenue, but a smaller investment and a valuable membership benefit. I currently resort to Google and searching for photos in the Forum.

With reference photos available in separate books or on the website, there's less need for color in the JGs.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

- Fix the editing mistakes and improve the print quality of the Judging Reference Manual and the JGs. They currently have typos, omissions, syntax, spelling, and formatting mistakes, and the fidelity of the print is low. Replace the AIM and hand drawn diagrams with detailed photos. Addressing quality and accuracy is a higher priority than adding color, IMO.

That's been done, at least with our version. I've gone over Chassis at least 5 times, sending my latest version in just after midnight this morning. I suspect I'll do it 1-2 more times before it's over.

The hours spent upgrading the photos, too, are untold. Look at the examples I posted, and how old finishes jump out in color that don't in B&W. It's just not the same.

Regarding reference, as Terry says there are no Corvette virgins. Compiling accurate photos, much less a book.... you're welcome to go for it.

[Mark E.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

It sounds like a lot of work has gone into the new JG editions.

The Judging Reference Manual needs attention too.

I'm not in the business of compiling books. But what if NCRS hired a professional automotive photographer for National and Regional events to shoot reference cars? It wouldn't take long before a nice collection of cars was documented.

[Michael B.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

I much prefer black and white. In fact, I trashed my flat screen color TV and went back to an 18 inch black and white just because the quality was so much better. Sorry for the sarcasm.

[Terry M.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

I worked on the 1968-69 Judging Manual Team and we labored under the belief that manual was going to be produced in color. There was no effort that I am aware of to adjust the images once the decision was made to produce it in black & white. What is worse is it is photocopied rather than printed and the results appear that no effort is made to screen the illustrations in order to improve their quality.

In the years since that manual was released I have had numerous conversations with both National Judging Chairmen and members of the Board of Directors. In the main I have been told of the concerns about members citing the color as their standard for restoration. For over a decade the NCRS store has sold a C3 exterior color chart (Colors ink printed) that is a poor representation, at best, of most of the colors shown. I am unaware of anyone who has protested an exterior color deduction because they used this NCRS supplied "standard." A simple prominent disclaimer should obviate any potential mis-use of the color images.

The other excuse I have heard is that color will cost too much. When I ask "How much is too much?" I never get an answer. No one who has voiced that objection to me has cost figures in hand or can cite them. I am sure printing the manuals either in black & white or in color will be more expensive than photocopying them, but the lack of quality of photocopies is so bad that printing needs to be considered. We do need some serious bids on the manual production so that we know what is really involved.

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

I mean really. Unbelievable we are even having to have this discussion. I have been waiting for the 70/72 JG & assumed it would be in color like my 67. Can't believe anyone would not want to have it in color even though it will cost more. I'm beginning to wander if we still have the same leadership that didn't want to let the C-2'S in.

[Walter G.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

I've been in printing sales at my company for 40+ years and have witnessed many changes. It used to be that color printing was financially prohibitive for many customers to even consider for their projects but with the advent of digital equipment that is no longer the case. As has been suggested in this thread the specs for the various publications should be sent out for bids to see what prices are actually quoted rather than just conjecture. Print on demand is certainly an option which could reduce the need for large inventories and there may be binding options available depending on the page counts of the various manuals. The example photos posted by Patrick Hulst make a strong case for using color. A disclaimer for the actual 'color' of a part(s) can always be included, but the use of color certainly makes for better contrast of parts and their configuration. We need to provide the best available materials to use in judging and for those members doing restorations. A change to color will keep the NCRS on task to maintain and further our reputation as the best source for Corvette information.

[Michael J.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

In the main I have been told of the concerns about members citing the color as their standard for restoration. .

This is a major concern, since color is so subjective and in the eye of the beholder, judge or owner.

[Mike E.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Ken,
the 67 manual I purchased not too long ago (5th edition) has a color cover, but all the pics are black and white. I have heard that there are bootleg copies in color. Is that what you have, and how do I find one if so?

[George J.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

Has anybody else sent emails to those listed in Patrick's list? I did, and received replies almost instantly that this is going to be a topic at the BOD meeting coming up. I thought the replies were thoughtful and completely timely.

George

[Michael J.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

I did, but as usual when you email these people, I got no replies or acknowledgements.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

This is a major concern, since color is so subjective and in the eye of the beholder, judge or owner.

And you'll never "fix" that. As every person is their own reference, though, I'm not sure it is a valid argument.
I would suggest it is a poor excuse for not using color in a manual. It's like saying Picasso should have only used black, white and gray because if he had used color everyone would have experienced his paintings differently.

Just sayin'

[Mike E.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

And you'll never "fix" that. As every person is their own reference, though, I'm not sure it is a valid argument.
I would suggest it is a poor excuse for not using color in a manual. It's like saying Picasso should have only used black, white and gray because if he had used color everyone would have experienced his paintings differently.

Just sayin'

I can't speak for everyone, but I've been reasonably good at misinterpreting black and white pictures!

[Dave C.]

Re: Judging Guides and Color Pictures

I'm glad to see this subject come up, I have been working on the restoration of my 67 roadster for the last two years, and every time I refer to the JG, I say to myself , " why are these pictures not in colour' ( that's Canadian for color) it would make it so much easier to distinguish small details. I just can't believe that the cost would be an issue to anyone, these cars are so expensive to buy and restore , who would even care if the guide was $200.00 or more. That being said, I have to praise all the people who were involved in the development of 1967 edition, I think I have every single publication that is available in reference to restoring a 67 corvette, and the one I use 90 % of the time is the JG. It has been so well layed out, I find it so easy to locate the area I am working on, usually within seconds. Colour pictures and more of them would certainly enhance an already great reference manual.