Cost of tires in 1964

[Michael J.]

I have been doing research and documenting some things for my newly acquired '64, and in looking at the original window sticker, I see the first owner made some penciled in notes to total the cost of the car as delivered in addition to the total on the sticker. It includes "tires" and says "$211.15". The car came factory equipped with the RPO 2P92AA 670X15 4 Ply WSW tires (shown on the WS as a $31.85 charge), so I am wondering what replacement tires could have been bought when new to replace those tires before delivery to the first owner that they wanted. Any ideas?

[Leif A.]

Re: Cost of tires in 1964

Goodyear blue stripes...just guessin'

[Mark E.]

Re: Cost of tires in 1964

Snow tires?

[Michael J.]

Re: Cost of tires in 1964

Thanks guys, those are both good ideas. But, since the car was being delivered in Cleveland, Ohio in June, and it was ordered obviously for some kind of racing (almost $6,000 sticker price, FI, F40, J65, NO3, etc.) I think Leif's idea is more plausible. I would guess Goodyear Blue Streaks (or the Goodyear Blue Dot tires that were on Shelbys) would have been a very possible higher performance upgrade to the factory tires, and with a new set traded in, the $211.15 sounds really close. At least I have a good idea of what to ask, when and if I ever find the original owner. Thanks!

[Duke W.]

Re: Cost of tires in 1964

I installed a set of 6.70 Michelin X radials on my SWC in 1964 after chunking the OE General Jet Aires after a day hot lapping Kent. They cost a bit over $200 installed. I also looked at installing 7.00-15 Goodyear Blue Streak Sport Car Special racing tires, which would have cost about the same, but the Michelins made more sense for a kid about to enter college in a wet climate (Seattle).

A little over a decade later I found several of those Blue Streaks at Carroll Shelby Enterprises in Carson after he gathered up all the unused obsolete racing tires from various dealers in the west. Photos attached.

Whoever bought that '64 was pretty astute to immediately install better than OE tires, all of which were total junk, and from the option list it sounds like he was planning to do some seriou racing.

Duke

[Michael J.]

Re: Cost of tires in 1964

That's interesting Duke, I didn't remember that radials were actually available from foreign manufacturers in 1964. I would guess swapping out new WSW 670X15s to a dealer would not get you much value in those days. So looks like the numbers would fit for an upgrade to better tires for the racing apps the owner was most probably looking at.

[Mark E.]

Re: Cost of tires in 1964

Cleveland? I still say snow tires.

[Duke W.]

Re: Cost of tires in 1964

That's interesting Duke, I didn't remember that radials were actually available from foreign manufacturers in 1964. I would guess swapping out new WSW 670X15s to a dealer would not get you much value in those days. So looks like the numbers would fit for an upgrade to better tires for the racing apps the owner was most probably looking at.

I don't recall when European manufacturers began importing radials into the USA, but they were pretty esoteric back in those days. From research I did in car mags the two radial choices were Pirelli Cinturato and Michelin X. I also knew about the GY racing tires - knew a guy who had them mounted on a Sebring Silver FI SWC.

As a high school kid about ready to enter college I needed an "economical" (long wearing) tire that was good in the wet and would survive once or twice a year days of hot lapping a race track. In my heart I wanted the GY racing tires, but practicality said Michelin and those tires provide excellent service.

They lasted 47K miles and several track days. The grip was stunning, especially in the wet, and steering response was very precise and linear. The steel-belted Michelins did have a reputation for "sudden breakaway", and I experienced it twice. The first time I was dicing with a Daimler SP 250 on a wet road. The second time I was wet driving home late at night on a dry road about year later at age 19-20. No damage was done in either case and I never again lost control of a car on road or track, but I've had some close calls.

I replaced the Michelins in 1968 with Pirelli 205HR-15 Cinturatos (The current repro is in one of the photos). These tires were fabric belted, which Pirelli claimed had more benign breakaway characteristics. Unfortunately I was disappointed with their grip on the OE 5.5" wheels, and the "Pirelli Pocket Guide" said that wide tires needed wide wheels, so I bought a set of '68 Corvette 7" Rally wheels and, wow, what a difference. Grip increased and there was plenty of warning before the tires broke away. I had to shave the horizontal fender lips to gain clearance and the SWC remains so today.

Not long after mounting the new Pirellis, the night I graduated from Washington and was commissioned as a 2LT, USAF, I traversed the I-5 ship canal bridge in Seattle with a buddy riding shotgun on the lower level express lanes at 150 MPH on the way from partying in downtown back to the U-district. (There wa not traffic ahead or behind me so what the hell.)

A week later on my way east to work for Pontiac I hit some rain in N. Dakota cruising at about 100 MPH. The car felt solid and the rain just blew off the windshield. I never slowed down or turned the wipers on in that squall.

The Pirellis gave great service too, and I replaced them with 225/70VR-15 Pirelli Cinturato CN-73s in 1976.

I have one of the last produced sets of Firestone 225/70R-15 102V PV-41 police pursuit tires for the future.

I laugh every time some guy on the CF brags about his "suspension kit" - hundreds of dollars worth of springs bars... that's riding on rock hard S-rated "van tires". I learned before I graduated by high school that grip is a function of tire characteristics and junk tires mean the car will never achieve its potential regardless of the suspension components, and believe me, a base suspension C2 with the best available tires (like Avon CR6ZZ) and some judicious alignment tuning and dialed in adjustable rebound shocks can easily challenge a modern sports car.

Duke

[Joe R.]

Re: Cost of tires in 1964

Duke,

At 150 mph you were about 10 mph above the blow over limit. Surprised you are still here! Duntov commented that a 63 SWC became a wing at 140mph in the Boeing wind tunnel in Seattle WA.

JR

PS. And I proved that to be correct!

[Stuart F.]

Re: Cost of tires in 1964

My 63 convertible hit 140 on the speedo in Nevada with headlights open. That made a noticeable difference.

Stu Fox

[Duke W.]

Re: Cost of tires in 1964

Duke,
5
At 150 mph you were about 10 mph above the blow over limit. Surprised you are still here! Duntov commented that a 63 SWC became a wing at 140mph in the Boeing wind tunnel in Seattle WA.

JR

PS. And I proved that to be correct!

I don't recall a C2 being tested in Boeing's wind tunnel. A model was tested in the Cal Tech Wind Tunnel during the development period (see attached photo). I had my SWC up to 150 or a little more three times. The front end lift is noticeable, and the steering gets light. Basically it doesn't want to yaw - just go in a straight line, so the condition is not unstable. C2s raced at big tracks like Sebring and the Riverside "long course" (3.3 miles) achieved 150 or better each lap on the longest straights.

Later on I think GM tested a production Corvette in a large wind tunnel, and results were reported in Corvette News. It takes about 500 honest flywheel horsepower to get a C2 Coupe up to 200 MPH and at that speed there is zero weight on the front wheels,

Ground vehicle aerodynamics was not well understood at the time. Mitchell thought and a body shaped like an "inverted wing" would not lift, but that proved to be a false assumption. I guess none of the designers were pilots. If so, they would have understood the "ground effect" - that an airplane generates more lift when it gets close to the ground, so you can't use free air aerodynamic experience to design a low lift ground vehicle.

Ford did a lot of aero experimentation with the original GT 40, but they missed a couple of issues. The elaborate driver ventilation system consumed a lot more horsepower than they assumed making the car about 10 MPH slower than predicted. Also the rear developed a rotary motion at high speed - like an arrow without feathers, which caused the car to become unstable and led to at least one crash at LeMans April practice in 1964.

The original 250 GTO did not have the ducktail rear spoiler. One account I read attributes its addition to Richie Ginther, which is interesting. Ginther was no aero engineer, but he must have had a good intuitive feel for aerodynamics if that story is true.

Do I understand from your "PS", that you had an accident at high speed in a C2?

Duke

[Michael J.]

Re: Cost of tires in 1964

Interesting all this talk about the top speeds of the C2s. In the collection of documents for this '64, are some old, brown and fading computer print-out times sheets dated Fri. 2-2-68 at 15.52 and another at 16.32. They show a couple of runs someplace (I am still researching where this was) and the runs from 0 to a top speed of 158.15 MPH at 43.98 seconds and 1.38 miles, with all the distance/time in between. The car has a 3.08 rear end ratio, another odd option item. I was wondering if that speed was possible with the car in 1968, guess it was.

[Loren L.]

Re: Cost of tires in 1964

Michael, in that time frame I replaced the "US Royal Laredos" with a set of Michelin Super Sports, which immediately took away the satisfying chirp from the power shift into third - even Laredos had a purpose, I guess. The price range also seems right. The Public Library microfiche of the nearest City newspaper might also make for interesting reading on tire prices. The 3.08 gear makes me think of a salesman whose territory ran from Minnesota to Ohio or a racer strictly on ovals. Very interesting car, though.

[Michael J.]

Re: Cost of tires in 1964

Thanks Loren, I do hope to find the first two owners to see exactly what they were thinking. It is a really interesting car, and the pride and joy of a long time NCRS member who owned it for the last 30 years before I was lucky enough to get it. The forensic view is that the car was ordered for competitive road rallies, a lady was the first owner, and you can add saddle tan leather interior and power windows to the option list. As she sits today, she has two ancient chronometers and an air temp. gauge mounted on the dash, and previously had an aircraft style oil temp.gauge and an 8 track tape player mounted in the glove box door, since removed and door replaced. Picture of that here:

[Duke W.]

Re: Cost of tires in 1964

Interesting all this talk about the top speeds of the C2s. In the collection of documents for this '64, are some old, brown and fading computer print-out times sheets dated Fri. 2-2-68 at 15.52 and another at 16.32. They show a couple of runs someplace (I am still researching where this was) and the runs from 0 to a top speed of 158.15 MPH at 43.98 seconds and 1.38 miles, with all the distance/time in between. The car has a 3.08 rear end ratio, another odd option item. I was wondering if that speed was possible with the car in 1968, guess it was.

It was fairly rare to get that kind of test data back in the late sixties. Do you know what equipment was used to collect it?

The times I had my 340 HP SWC up to about 150, it still had more, but acceleration tails off the faster you are moving and the car is eating up real estate very fast. I felt my car could reach something between 155 and 160 under ideal conditions.

With OE 760 revs/mile tires or something close, 158 would be close to 6200 revs, and with the FI engine in good tune it's entirely possible.

Most guys didn't know the top speed potential of C2 Corvettes because they were typically geared so short as to be rev limited on top speed. It took a 3.08 and a long stretch of open road to see what a SHP/FI engine could really do. In the Sting Ray's first race appearance at Riverside in October 1962 they ran the long course, which has an over 6000 foot straight. The entry was slow, but it was downhill for the first half. I think most of the Sting Rays were seeing close to 160 MPH in that race.

I'm a little surprised that 158 was achieved in less than a minute and 1.5 miles from a dead stop. The souped up Saleen Mustang I drove in the 1990 Silver State Classic Challenge did 160, but I think it took well over a minute and nearly three miles to get there. The engine was OE Ford 5.0 HO other than an underdrive crank pulley, no fan, and a H-pipe in place of the four catalyst system, but the engine felt definitely stronger. We also removed the side mirrors and taped up most of the grille opening and removed the rear "tray" on the decklid. The 160 MPH was achieved at 4550 revs in fifth, OE peak power of 220 net was rated at 4200, but the mods definitely made more power and extended the useable power bandwidth.

BTW the Saleen drove rock steady at that speed with no apparent lift or change in steering response compared to normal highway speed. There was one frost heave on the road (Nevada SR 318 between Lund and Hiku) that I felt completely unloaded the suspension, so we were not quite airborne, but damned near!

Duke