Judging questions

[Edward M.]

I guess I should know the answer to these questions, or at least be able to determine the answer from the various judging manuals, but so far I am still in the dark.

My questions resolve around added PRO options to a car, and the judging deductions associated with that situation.

So, two question:

What happens if an RPO is added to a car where the RPO was originally available on that year and the addition of the RPO is not detectable.

Example: A 1971 big block coupe (LS-5) that was factory equipped with automatic trans and power brakes, and no other "under hood" options. The owner adds a factory correct power steering system, using parts from a donor car.

As I understand it, if the owner declares the addition of the power steering option, then the power steering equipment is ignored, and the car is judged based on the deviations from a non P/S car.

Now, what changes if the owner does not declare the addition, and the addition is not detectable? Judged as if it were a factory P/S car?

This actual situation came up many years ago at the Cypress Gardens meet (yes it was a while back).

I know what was done. I am wondering what should have been done?

Now just to be thorough, what about the addition of an option on a car that should not have that option because of other installed equipment?

Example: A 1971 LT-1 car with factory A/C added. Now we all know that 1971 LT-1 cars could not be ordered with A/C.

I assume deviations from a non A/C car would be applied.

What if the owner declared the car as being original with the LT-1 and the A/C system. Burden of proof would be on the owner that this was a factory car (right?) but let's assume that the owner had some sort of documentation.

How would the judges handle the car?

OK, that is the all for now.

[Michael J.]

Re: Judging questions

I am really interesting and waiting for replies here, I have my popcorn out……...

And am checking section 4 Para 9 and 13 of the JRM 8th edition, for perspective……..

[Kenneth P.]

Re: Judging questions

Section 4 item 9 of the Judging Reference Manual, Added or Deleted Options states "The detectable addition OR deletion of any regular production vehicle option subsequent to factory assembly is inconsistent with NCRS Judging Standards and therefore subject to a full deduction on originality and condition."

So the way I understand this is if the judge finds that the AC was added after assembly you would get full deduction of both originality and condition points. The same would be if the car came with AC and you removed it you would get full deduction of points for that options. I couldn't find anywhere in the manual says the judge can ignore the option if the owner declared it before judging.

[Michael W.]

Re: Judging questions

If the addition is undetectable and undeclared- how would the judges know?

Kinda like the concept of NCRS accepting 'undetectedable' restamped pads.

[Frank D.]

Re: Judging questions

My '63 had added Vintage Air A/C and it was NEVER a factory A/C car and the fact was declared before judging.
It got FULL deducts for everything modified for the install AND deviations from factory compressor, evaporator, drier, hose routing, dash vents, etc.. In the realm of 60 points all told.

A '67 on the same floor last January with the same A/C kit installed (also a non factory A/C car) had an across-the-board total deduct of 12 points for the aftermarket A/C. It was the 4th judging of this car and the deduct was consistently 12 points.

So -- you'll get a lot of answers here - like I did when I asked about this issue months before judging....I wouldn't count on 'em.

I have had an email in to the National Judging Chairman on the topic for months....the answer so far is: (sound of crickets)... When I politely asked about it on here after judging the thread was closed.

Mind you - I'm not posing what was correct or incorrect either way - just stating actual facts.

[Michael J.]

Re: Judging questions

I guess I should know the answer to these questions, or at least be able to determine the answer from the various judging manuals, but so far I am still in the dark.

My questions resolve around added PRO options to a car, and the judging deductions associated with that situation.

So, two question:

What happens if an RPO is added to a car where the RPO was originally available on that year and the addition of the RPO is not detectable.

Example: A 1971 big block coupe (LS-5) that was factory equipped with automatic trans and power brakes, and no other "under hood" options. The owner adds a factory correct power steering system, using parts from a donor car.

As I understand it, if the owner declares the addition of the power steering option, then the power steering equipment is ignored, and the car is judged based on the deviations from a non P/S car.

Now, what changes if the owner does not declare the addition, and the addition is not detectable? Judged as if it were a factory P/S car?

This actual situation came up many years ago at the Cypress Gardens meet (yes it was a while back).

I know what was done. I am wondering what should have been done?

Now just to be thorough, what about the addition of an option on a car that should not have that option because of other installed equipment?

Example: A 1971 LT-1 car with factory A/C added. Now we all know that 1971 LT-1 cars could not be ordered with A/C.

I assume deviations from a non A/C car would be applied.

What if the owner declared the car as being original with the LT-1 and the A/C system. Burden of proof would be on the owner that this was a factory car (right?) but let's assume that the owner had some sort of documentation.

How would the judges handle the car?

OK, that is the all for now.

Mr. McComas, I am not sure of all the answers you are seeking, but the words you used above have me wondering if I was missing something over the last 7 years or so as an active member. I am not a long time member, but I have had 4 different cars judged in several different chapter, regional, and national events, as well as attending numerous judging schools, doing chapter judging, and attending judging retreats (though I missed the last one when I had to withdraw at the last minute, maybe my lack of knowledge on this issue was covered in that one???).

I have never encountered in the judging guides, nor my judging experience, save the paperwork I am filling out for my Bowtie candidate, where an owner gets to declare the things you mention, and I have never had a judge ask me if I had anything to declare about the car's options.

I did, during a regional about 6 years ago, feel sorry for a chassis judge about to get down to look at my '66's side exhaust on a grimy parking lot, and told him, hint, hint, this is an AO Smith car....he said thanks but he has to check. When I told the former judging chair I had done that, he told me never do that kind of thing, since my car had never been judged and who knows it might have been the only AO Smith car with side exhaust...... , but let the judge do his job.

As I understand it, the judge's job is to judge the car as it sits on the field without additional extraneous information from the owner or the other judges about the car. So I am curious where this "owner declaration" situation, and the incorporation of additional owner information about the car's options are covered in the judging guides and are there flight judging bonus points associated with coming clean about mods and added non-original RPO options I am unaware of?

[Dave S.]

Re: Judging questions

Mr. McComas, I am not sure of all the answers you are seeking, but the words you used above have me wondering if I was missing something over the last 7 years or so as an active member. I am not a long time member, but I have had 4 different cars judged in several different chapter, regional, and national events, as well as attending numerous judging schools, doing chapter judging, and attending judging retreats (though I missed the last one when I had to withdraw at the last minute, maybe my lack of knowledge on this issue was covered in that one???).

I have never encountered in the judging guides, nor my judging experience, save the paperwork I am filling out for my Bowtie candidate, where an owner gets to declare the things you mention, and I have never had a judge ask me if I had anything to declare about the car's options.

I did, during a regional about 6 years ago, feel sorry for a chassis judge about to get down to look at my '66's side exhaust on a grimy parking lot, and told him, hint, hint, this is an AO Smith car....he said thanks but he has to check. When I told the former judging chair I had done that, he told me never do that kind of thing, since my car had never been judged and who knows it might have been the only AO Smith car with side exhaust...... , but let the judge do his job.

As I understand it, the judge's job is to judge the car as it sits on the field without additional extraneous information from the owner or the other judges about the car. So I am curious where this "owner declaration" situation, and the incorporation of additional owner information about the car's options are covered in the judging guides and are there flight judging bonus points associated with coming clean about mods and added non-original RPO options I am unaware of?

I believe that prior to the actual Bowtie judging at the National Convention you will be asked to declare what you know about the car. It is not limited to added or deleted options but also actual items not original to the car. That declaration could be something important but more geared to replacement parts, maintenance items etc. That is the only formal "declaration" that I am aware of.

[Michael J.]

Re: Judging questions

Dave, if you look in the JRM, 8th Edition, two pages from the back, there is a form to fill out for Bowtie and Crossed Flags, an Application and Judging Record form. There the owner has to "declare", "change, repaint, replace, replacement, of any item of which I am aware" as well as a declaration about the entire drivetrain originality, and it must be signed and attested to by the owner before Bowtie judging.

[Edward M.]

Re: Judging questions

OK, I am still confused by the situation.

First, lets please not go off into aftermarket system added to cars and the issues surrounding them, my questions are solely related to the addition (and I guess the deletion) of factory RPO options.

It has been quote a while since I judged at an NCRS event, and I am sure some thing have changed.

I recall judging a 1971 big block coupe at Cypress Gardens (so this had to have been in the late 1980s or early 1990s) that was originally a
LS-5, automatic, power brake, and no additional under hood options).

The car was either judged the year before, or at the event but not judged (I never did quite get that clear). The point is that the car was "known" to some of the NCRS people at the event from being around the previous year.

The owner of the car added power steering, using donor parts from another 1971 big block car that had factory power steering. One thing I distinctly recall was that the donor car was dated 5 days before to car being judged.

The car looked great, but some of the power steering components were over restored. Some other parts of the car were also over restored, so we didn't think much about it.

Long story short, the car judged fine, with a point or so deducted for over restored parts, etc., etc.

After we finished judging, we were told that the power steering had been added. After knowing that, and thinking about what we saw, we decided that the addition was not detectable.

At no point in that process, at least as far as I knew, was the owner asked to declare that the car was original as presented. There may have been some form that the owner had to complete, but I don't know what it was.

What I do recall was that at one of the tech sessions at Cypress Gardens during this time frame the question was asked about owner added RPO options. Part of the response was that we (NCRS) may not be able to detect it, but it was very possible that the build paperwork would show up that would document the option set for all Corvettes. At that point, deductions would be made for added / deleted options, wrong engines, etc.

Well, as we all know, the paperwork never materialized.

But now I am hearing that owners are being asked to "declare" that their car is being judged as a factory original < fill in the blank > optioned car.

If the owner declares that option XYZ is not original to the car, then the parts that make up option XYZ are ignored, and the car is judged based on the parts that are incorrect / modified as a result of the addition of option XYZ.

So, going back to the 1971 big block car with added power steering, if the owner declared that the power steering was not original to the car, then the actual power steering components are not judged, but the parts that are incorrect / modified (like the crank pulley, fan belts, tie rod ends in the wrong holes, etc.) are judged accordingly.

However, if the owner does not declare the addition / deletion of a option / component, and the subsequent judging process determines that the option / component was added / deleted, the car is recorded as a counterfeit, and the judging stops.

So, that is the question. Do we now ask owners to declare the status of their cars, and possibly declare cars counterfeit if we detect the addition / deletion of options?

And just to settle any questions upfront, I am seriously asking these questions without any intention of stirring up any hard feelings / problems. I am really asking how we handle this situation.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Judging questions

Do we now ask owners to declare the status of their cars, and possibly declare cars counterfeit if we detect the addition / deletion of options?

Ed,

No, we do not. Only Bowtie judging, as already mentioned in this thread, requires any type of declaration.
Flight judged cars have no declaration, and the owner does not have to say anything. As per years ago, they're still encouraged to a degree NOT to say anything about the car.

The only cars that need documentation are those with exceedingly rare (<20) options (i.e. L-89, ZL-1), and this was covered by Roy Sinor a few years ago in his column.

So, whoever told you that "owners are being asked to "declare" that their car is being judged as a factory original < fill in the blank > optioned car" was not really correct, unless you happen to own or present an exceedingly rare car.

Patrick

[Edward M.]

Re: Judging questions

Ed,

No, we do not. Only Bowtie judging, as already mentioned in this thread, requires any type of declaration.
Flight judged cars have no declaration, and the owner does not have to say anything. As per years ago, they're still encouraged to a degree NOT to say anything about the car.

The only cars that need documentation are those with exceedingly rare (<20) options (i.e. L-89, ZL-1), and this was covered by Roy Sinor a few years ago in his column.

So, whoever told you that "owners are being asked to "declare" that their car is being judged as a factory original < fill in the blank > optioned car" was not really correct, unless you happen to own or present an exceedingly rare car.

Patrick

OK, that makes sense. A declaration for a Bowtie candidate must have been what they were talking about.

Thanks Patrick

[Joe C.]

Re: Judging questions

OK, I am still confused by the situation.

First, lets please not go off into aftermarket system added to cars and the issues surrounding them, my questions are solely related to the addition (and I guess the deletion) of factory RPO options.

It has been quote a while since I judged at an NCRS event, and I am sure some thing have changed.

I recall judging a 1971 big block coupe at Cypress Gardens (so this had to have been in the late 1980s or early 1990s) that was originally a
LS-5, automatic, power brake, and no additional under hood options).

The car was either judged the year before, or at the event but not judged (I never did quite get that clear). The point is that the car was "known" to some of the NCRS people at the event from being around the previous year.

The owner of the car added power steering, using donor parts from another 1971 big block car that had factory power steering. One thing I distinctly recall was that the donor car was dated 5 days before to car being judged.

The car looked great, but some of the power steering components were over restored. Some other parts of the car were also over restored, so we didn't think much about it.

Long story short, the car judged fine, with a point or so deducted for over restored parts, etc., etc.

After we finished judging, we were told that the power steering had been added. After knowing that, and thinking about what we saw, we decided that the addition was not detectable.

At no point in that process, at least as far as I knew, was the owner asked to declare that the car was original as presented. There may have been some form that the owner had to complete, but I don't know what it was.

What I do recall was that at one of the tech sessions at Cypress Gardens during this time frame the question was asked about owner added RPO options. Part of the response was that we (NCRS) may not be able to detect it, but it was very possible that the build paperwork would show up that would document the option set for all Corvettes. At that point, deductions would be made for added / deleted options, wrong engines, etc.

Well, as we all know, the paperwork never materialized.

But now I am hearing that owners are being asked to "declare" that their car is being judged as a factory original < fill in the blank > optioned car.

If the owner declares that option XYZ is not original to the car, then the parts that make up option XYZ are ignored, and the car is judged based on the parts that are incorrect / modified as a result of the addition of option XYZ.

So, going back to the 1971 big block car with added power steering, if the owner declared that the power steering was not original to the car, then the actual power steering components are not judged, but the parts that are incorrect / modified (like the crank pulley, fan belts, tie rod ends in the wrong holes, etc.) are judged accordingly.

However, if the owner does not declare the addition / deletion of a option / component, and the subsequent judging process determines that the option / component was added / deleted, the car is recorded as a counterfeit, and the judging stops.

So, that is the question. Do we now ask owners to declare the status of their cars, and possibly declare cars counterfeit if we detect the addition / deletion of options?

And just to settle any questions upfront, I am seriously asking these questions without any intention of stirring up any hard feelings / problems. I am really asking how we handle this situation.

The declaration is voluntary in the case of a car about to be Flight judged. The declaration should be made by the owner for RPO options that he is aware of in order to head off the possibility of a disqualification. The point is moot in the case of an aftermarket option. In BOTH cases, the optional equipment is "invisible" to the judges, who only deduct to the extent that the original configuration was modified in order to add the (RPO or aftermarket) option.

For example: presenting a car whose color has been changed with its original trim tag if an aftermarket tag had been added previously.

[Frank D.]

Re: Judging questions

I was asked directly, in front of the judging team for '63, "....Are you presenting this car as a factory A/C car?", by Carlton.
Call it declaration or whatever else you want. I'll drop out now as it has been deemed aftermarket A/C is irrelevant.
Just wanted to clear that up.