Starter Solenoid Replacement Nightmare

[Paul S.]

My 67 327, with power glide and stock points ignition system has been causing me issues starting when hot--starts fine cold, but drive it around, shut it off, and turn the key and no click or anything. Cools off and it starts fine. Figured since the solenoid is relatively cheap and available at local auto parts stores, I'd start there.

So yesterday I began. Removed the starter and cleaned up all the wire connectors on the harness. No corrosion, just very greasy. The solenoid on there was a replacement part--done sometime by the owner before me. Put the new one on, that I bought at AutoZone, reinstalled the starter, hooked the battery back up, and then the car has no power at all anywhere. Power windows, headlights, etc...nothing works. And yes, I had the negative terminal of the battery disconnected before I touched anything, and the entire time I was working on the car.

To make matters worse, when I had no power, I disconnected the battery again and rechecked all my connections at the starter, and removed and replaced the main positive (two wires, red and black, tied into one loop connector) connection from the starter solenoid to check that, and when reinstalling it, I cracked the plastic end cap to the starter solenoid, so I'll need to go get a new one and install it. Didn't really want to put the old one back on, just to troubleshoot given how heavy the starter is (I guess I'm a weakling--couldn't lift and hold it in place one handed in order to start a bolt and had to get a helper).

Can someone help me start to trace down my electrical issue if I'm still dead as a doornail with a new solenoid installed. Mine's a late production 67 (build date May 67) and I know it has a fusible link somewhere under the hood--don't know where that is to check it out--could I have blown that somehow?

Battery has juice--beyond that I'm not sure where to troubleshoot and how to do so once I have the new solenoid on. And I'd like to have a game plan mapped out at the ready.

Thanks all.

[Larry M.]

Re: Starter Solenoid Replacement Nightmare

Paul:

At your starter, there should be six (6) wires:

1. Battery + lead which is black goes to the starter solenoid battery post. It should have 12 volts on it at all times when battery is connected.

2. Brown fusible link (14 gage) which connects to the main red 10 gage wire. This wire supplies power to most of the wiring in the car. Yours may be bad. If this was replaced at some point in the past. it could be any color, but it connects to the 10 gage red wire. It is connected to the starter solenoid battery post.

3. Orange fusible link (20 gage) which connects to the ammeter in the dash. That is it's only purpose. It connects to a 16 gage black wire. It also connects to the starter solenoid battery post. It may be on a single connection ring terminal with #2 above.

4. A 12 gage purple wire which goes to the starter solenoid "S" post.

5. A 18 gage pink wire which goes to the starter solenoid "R" post.

6. A 14 gage black ground wire which connects to one of the starter mounting bolts to provide grounding for wiper and heater/blower.

The only good way I know to check for a blown brown fusible link is to disconnect the wire from the starter solenoid and then measure resistance or continuity from the terminal end to somewhere a foot or so away on the 10 gage red wire. Use a small straight pin to puncture the insulation in the red wire to connect the other multimeter lead. Then later, put a very small dab of silicone or epoxy over the pin hole after checking........or a small wrap of black electrical tape.

Fusible links are available from most auto stores, but the color may not be the same. I recommend soldering any splice connection and then covering it with two (2) layers of heat shrink insulation.

Larry

[Mike M.]

Re: Starter Solenoid Replacement Nightmare

agree with larry. long shot but did u try wiggling the ignition harness where it connects to the engine side of the fuse panel. mike

[Paul S.]

Re: Starter Solenoid Replacement Nightmare

I will try that the ignition harness.

On my wiring at the starter solenoid (Larry's post) it was:

Larry's #1: have that. When I tried with a test light yesterday on the loop at the end of the wire, it did not light.
Larry's #2: There is something bulky (it is all taped up) in the black and red wires that end in a single loop connector with a black and a red wire that attaches to the solenoid battery post. Thought it might be a butt connector or splice, but will unwrap the electrical tape wrap and see what's there.
Larry's #3: I have a black and a red wire that terminate in the single loop connector and connects to the solenoid battery post. Are there supposed to be 3 wires on the solenoid battery post?
Larry's 4 &5: Yes, mine's that way.
Larry's 6: I have two black wires on separate loops to the starter mounting bolt.

Now I'm wondering if I screwed up and have a mix up of the black wires and one of the two should be on the battery post of the solenoid, but I really don't think so. In part because the wires look too short to connect to the solenoid battery pole. Thoughts? If I do have one too many to ground, would that only affect the amp meter functioning or could it being grounded blow a circuit/fuse?

If I'm supposed to have power to the red wire at all times when the battery is connected, my test light yesterday didn't light when I touched it to the wire or the solenoid post when the red wire was connected to it (before I broke the solenoid cap). Should a simple test light poked in the red wire before the fusible link be in line with the battery and light up? If yes it should and does not light up when poking into the red wire before it gets to the fusible link, sounds like my fusible link blew. Does that sound right?

[Larry M.]

Re: Starter Solenoid Replacement Nightmare

Paul:

All this electrical work must be done with the battery disconnected for obvious reasons. But when you reconnect the battery, the battery + cable at the starter solenoid should be hot and 12 volts.

Appears the dark brown fusible link at the starter solenoid has been replaced at some time, so check it out. It should be a fusible link wire, and not just a plain piece of wire. This link supplies ALL the 12 volt power to everything else in the car when the engine is not running. When running, the alternator will/should provide this 12 volt power.

Also appears that the fusible link to the ammeter has been replaced. Again, check that it is a replacement 20 gage fusible link. If you accidentally grounded this wire, you would likely destroy the ammeter and perhaps other associated ammeter wiring............since the other wire to the ammeter (ammeter has two wires) is also 12 volt hot.

The battery terminal of the solenoid has three wires connected to it (#1, #2, #3 in my previous post).

It is possible that the ground wires to the heater blower and the wiper motor are two individual wires and terminals..........although they did not start out that way. But CHECK THEM OUT back to the heater motor and wiper motor to be sure that is what they are. Again, they attach to the starter mounting bolts to the block to provide ground.

The big red wire (10 gage) is not hot until the engine is started (alternator running) or you connect the brown fusible link (or its equivalent) to the starter solenoid battery post along with the + battery cable.

Larry

[Carl N.]

Re: Starter Solenoid Replacement Nightmare

How old are battery cables? They can look ok but have corrosion inside. Also make sure positive cable is not too close to exhaust pipes or manifolds.

[Paul S.]

Re: Starter Solenoid Replacement Nightmare

Hi Larry,

I just came in from dropping the starter and installing a new solenoid replacing the one that I broke yesterday. And I found the battery + cable which I hadn't reconnected yesterday. I had tucked it up out of the way and when I put the starter back just didn't see it.

So now I've got my wires connected to the solenoid as follows:

Attached to the battery post of the solenoid is a red and a black wire on one ring, and the battery + cable. I've got no kind of brown wire coming out of the harness. I didn't get a chance to unwrap the red and black, wire to see what's under there. So still unsure of that part.

Purple wire to the S terminal

Pink Wire to the R terminal.

Two black ground wires to the starter motor bolt (I have an AC car if that makes a difference in terms of ground).

And I do have power in the car which I didn't yesterday because yesterday I left the battery + wire disconnected. Now when I turn the key, nothing happens and the amp gauge goes one mark left of zero; no click, no nothing.

So now what?

[Paul S.]

Re: Starter Solenoid Replacement Nightmare

Battery cables are 8 years old, replaced by the former owner and the positive cable looks ok routing-wise in terms of the exhaust manifolds. I've got side pipes so the cable is nowhere near those. I've basically gone from bad to worse because now the car doesn't start at all. Just not sure what connection to mess with at this point.

[Larry M.]

Re: Starter Solenoid Replacement Nightmare

Paul:

I would recommend the following:

1. Turn on wipers and blower motor to make certain they are hooked up correctly and run. You might even want to turn on the headlights and see if they are bright or dim. This could indicate a battery or cable issue. Measure the battery voltage. Should be about 12.6 volts for a fully charged battery.

2. Get a multimeter and a helper. Measure the voltage on the purple wire at the solenoid when the helper turns the ignition switch to START. It should be 12 volts.

3. Measure the voltage at the solenoid battery cable terminal when the helper turns the ignition switch to START. It should go from 12 volts to a bit lower voltage, but should not go below 9-10 volts.

With the auto trans, make sure you have the gear selector in Park during this testing. There should be a switch that prevents starting the car if the gear selector is not in the correct position. Try in Park and Neutral..........repeat a few times to see if this switch is a problem.

Report back.

Larry

EDIT: It appears that you DO NOT have the brown or the orange fusible links at the starter...............only the red and black wires that these links ultimately connect to. If this is correct you are missing both fusible links, and they should be replaced as time permits. They are a needed safety feature on your car.

[Rich G.]

Re: Starter Solenoid Replacement Nightmare

Check the voltage at the starter. If it's not the same as a battery voltage, check(wiggle) the firewall connector.

Take this from someone who changed a starter twice before discovering the real problem. Had the same symptoms you describe in your original post.

Rich

[Paul S.]

Re: Starter Solenoid Replacement Nightmare

Paul:

I would recommend the following:

1. Turn on wipers and blower motor to make certain they are hooked up correctly and run. You might even want to turn on the headlights and see if they are bright or dim. This could indicate a battery or cable issue. Measure the battery voltage. Should be about 12.6 volts for a fully charged battery.

2. Get a multimeter and a helper. Measure the voltage on the purple wire at the solenoid when the helper turns the ignition switch to START. It should be 12 volts.

3. Measure the voltage at the solenoid battery cable terminal when the helper turns the ignition switch to START. It should go from 12 volts to a bit lower voltage, but should not go below 9-10 volts.

With the auto trans, make sure you have the gear selector in Park during this testing. There should be a switch that prevents starting the car if the gear selector is not in the correct position. Try in Park and Neutral..........repeat a few times to see if this switch is a problem.

Report back.

Larry

EDIT: It appears that you DO NOT have the brown or the orange fusible links at the starter...............only the red and black wires that these links ultimately connect to. If this is correct you are missing both fusible links, and they should be replaced as time permits. They are a needed safety feature on your car.

Ok, I'm back. Heater blower and wipers work.

I've got 13 volts at the battery.

Nothing at either the purple wire on the solenoid battery cable, with the key turned over to start.

I looked around the engine compartment for the main connection and I think I see it but am not sure. Mine's an AC car so the battery is on the driver's side. Is this a picture of the main connection and how would it come apart as I don't want to break anything?

Also, I looked briefly for what may be a fusible link, not sure it's there unless it is the second picture which is adjacent to the power brake booster. Nothing that I can see down below by the starter.

So now what?

Thanks.

[Paul S.]

Re: Starter Solenoid Replacement Nightmare

Ok, update. Through a combination of wiggling the main connector at the fire wall pictured above behind the battery and connecting and reconnecting the battery, here's what the volt ohm meter read down at the solenoid:

At the main pole to which the red/black wire and the black power wire connects, I've got 12.7 volts all the time whether the key is on or during cranking. That matches the reading on the battery--juice is dropping a bit from the 13 volts from cranking. I thought that part at the solenoid is supposed to be hot only when cranking.

On the purple wire, I'm getting only 3.4 volts while cranking.

And the car won't start, and doesn't sound like it's cranking over properly. I watched the starter during cranking and I can see it engage at the power glide torque converter gear and it turns. It looks square and true and wasn't shimmed at all which I understand is normal.

Help please--something is not right.

Done for the night--it's a work day. Making progress--I'd give a lot to hear the good ole 327 fire up.

Edit: Before going to bed, I decided to tinker a bit, wiggle the main cable a bit more and it started right up. How in the world do you get that connection apart without breaking anything? Seems like I ought to clean up the contacts.

Won't know whether the hot and won't start problem is solved yet. Rich may be right--it could be the firewall connector. Now why I had no power and it was the fire wall connector doesn't make sense--never touched anything on the end.

[Paul S.]

Re: Starter Solenoid Replacement Nightmare

I'm back and need more help and guidance. Yesterday morning, as well as the two prior mornings, the car while still up on the ramps in my garage started every time, perfectly. I probably started it 20 times because I just could not believe it somehow went from turning the key with nothing other than the amp meter moving to the left one mark, to starting up.

So yesterday morning, I start it up--and it turned over better than it ever has--backed it down off the ramps, parked it in the driveway, cleaned up the garage and put the ramps away.

I go to start it, and for a millisecond it sounded normal, but didn't fire and I hear sort of a clunk and from then until now all it does when you try to start, is make a staccato sound, almost like a machine gun. And the fan turns slowly.

So the first thing I did was check my battery voltage--again the same 12.8 volts. Disconnected the battery and went to work on the bulkhead connectors, which I finally got off. No corrosion--cleaned the contacts on the harness and connectors and put them back. No change.

I had ordered a new ignition switch from licorvette just in case--so I put that on. No change.

And the battery's full charged (it's kept on a C-tek battery maintainer).

To review:

I have now replaced the starter solenoid twice (after having broken the plastic end cap on the first one over tightening the main post connection); cleaned all the loop connectors at the starter, and bulkhead connectors, and replaced the ignition switch.

When I took readings down at the starter on Thursday night the main battery post has exactly the same voltage output as up on the battery--13-12.8 volts. The purple wire was half that (with the key turned all the way to start) when I was taking readings and the car didn't click or do anything. I don't have readings when the car suddenly became able to start again later Thursday night, after I had disconnected and reconnected the battery (both positive and negative) and wiggled the bulk head connectors.

And I don't think my wiring harness is original--owing from the fact that I don't have the fusible links down by the starter, and it just doesn't look 49 years old. I suspect it was replaced around 20 years ago at the time when the former owner purchased the car from a dealer in Kansas City.

Out of an over abundance of caution, I'm going to replace the battery on Tuesday since the battery is more than 7 years old, but I don't expect that to cure my problem. The only thing I haven't touched is the neutral safety switch but if that wasn't working how would I be getting the machine gun clicking from the starter. And I'm tempted to re-do all the terminals on the end of the harness at the starter but I cannot solder very well under the best conditions so I'd be using crimp connectors (good ones, the kind for marine applications that have heat shrink insulators instead of the cheap plastic crimps), but I'm going to hold off on that, while waiting on a response to this post.

What do I try next?

Thanks all.

[Larry M.]

Re: Starter Solenoid Replacement Nightmare

Paul:

I would make up a small wire jumper from some 12-14 gage wire and two small alligator clips. Then jump from the solenoid battery + terminal to the "S" terminal on the solenoid (which connects to the purple wire). Do this for only a second or two. The engine should crank/turn over, but should not run. This jumper in effect bypasses the ignition switch, firewall connector, neutral switch, etc and puts full battery voltage directly to the starter solenoid.

See what that does for you. You might even use a small screwdriver instead of the jumper wire if you have the room. Just remember that the jumper wire or the screwdriver will be "hot" with 12 volts, so don't let it inadvertently touch other metal or engine ground. A few sparks may fly, but they won't hurt you.

I believe Chevrolet recommends temporarily removing the purple and the pink wire from the "S" and "R" terminals during this test for Corvettes..........although I have never done it and I haven't seen any issues. But perhaps better to follow GM instructions. Something about possible issues with the ignition switch grounding if it is not done.

If engine will not crank/turn over, then the starter/starter solenoid, or the battery/battery cables are the problems. If you have a helper, they can watch the battery voltage on the multimeter during this time to see if the battery is good or if the voltage drops ways off.......indicating a bad cell(s).

If the engine does crank/turn over, then the issues are somewhere else...........maybe the various starter/solenoid electrical wiring or wiring terminal ends or neutral switch (since you haven't checked it or replaced it yet).

Larry

[Frank E.]

Re: Starter Solenoid Replacement Nightmare

Even though you have 12.8 volts in the battery, it may not be able to put out the amps needed. Have your battery load tested to see if it needs replaced. however, a 7 year old battery would always be suspect to me.....

Good luck...