1964 FI with TI Starting Problem
spark problem
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Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem
I am not a FI or a TI expert but you have done a good job troubleshooting, it's a electrical problem. Before you do anything go to the starter solenoid with a test light and make sure during cranking there is 12V at the small pink wire on the solenoid S terminal. That is the wire that provides 12V for cranking and will trace back and plug to a pigtail in the TI harness which plugs into the distributor TI plug.
I would start there, you simply don't have any spark during cranking. -
Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem
Hugh, I'm at the Regional in Lakeland with limited access but I'll try to give you a few TI ideas. The exact symptoms you described can be caused by several things. Check the simple things first.
Ignition Switch = OFF
1- Disconnect the distributor 2-wire plug from the TI harness. With a ohm meter using 2 alligator clips firmly held to the terminals verify the2 distributor terminals yield a reading of 500-700 ohms. With the meter connected, slightly move/wiggle/pull/rotate/stretch/etc the 2-wire cord coming out of the distributor. Eyeball the meter while doing the above. Remove the distributor cap and try to grasp the magnetic pickup coil assembly and rotate it back and forth to emulate the centrifugal advance. This will check the wires from the dist base to the internal pickup coil interconnect.
A- If within range during the entire test, reconnect plug to harness.
B- If outside range or open(high resistance), the pickup coil or wires are defective. Replace pickup coil.
2- If Pass
A- Check TI module case Ground points. Ensure clean connections and test Blk ground wires at TI module case to engine ground using ohm meter. If Pass......
B- Remove TI Module from car and open the case rear cover. The 3 screws holding the circuit board MUST be properly grounded. If using the original 3 screws with the K&B(green) circuit board, they are TOO long. Use shorter screws and toothed lockwashers to secure circuit board to case. This is a common "miss" using the K&B boards.
Further tests......
Ignition Switch = ON (NO crank)
1- Using a voltmeter, test for 5 to 7 Volts between Ground and Coil+.
Follow the procedure below to diagnose further.
RichComment
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Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem
Second Timothy's check, make it your first effort. It assures voltage is available.
I assume you are now getting no cranking at all, if it cranks then on to another step!
If no cranking - do your interior lights dim when you turn key to start? If NO, have you replaced the main bulkhead connector with a repo?
If a repo wiggle it a little (hope for cranking). The repo bulkhead connectors are typical of poor construction.Comment
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Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem
Cranking fine since installing the new battery, strong and long. As usual with me I jumped the gun when I read that the K&B circuit board hold down screws were too long. Without doing the suggested initial testing I pulled the TI unit. My TI unit is a Lectric Limited unit purchased from Paragon a couple of years ago. I replaced the #8 x 3/4 screws with #8 x 1/2 s/s screws and verified it was grounded to the case. I ohmed the new and old TI unit, see the attached table. I'm guessing but because the new unit is shorting to ground it's shot!! PLEASE tell me I'm wrong!
Ohm reading were made using the 200K scale on the VOM. A new wire harness was installed with the new circuit b
New Unit Results:
NOTE: The #2 terminal is loose and if wiggled just right the ohm jumped to 45 +/- 5.Terminal 1 2 3 Ground 1 na 54 Infinity 20 2 54 na Infinity 34 3 Infinity Infinity na Infinity Old Unit 1 na 12 1 Infinity 2 See Note 13 na 12 Infinity 3 1 12 na Infinity Comment
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Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem
Hugh, I'm away from home.
Those readings are of the internal circuits of the modules. I have no idea what the specs are. However if your terminal #2 is loose it may be internally broken. This is one of the drawbacks of using the M&H modules, as the terminals are delicate and if broken they cannot be repaired because the circuits are encased in epoxy. If so, the board is a throwaway.
I have a LL(M&H) module there which I could test for you for a general comparison but I can't get to it until much later in the week. It may be a ineffective exercise since yours may be bad.
RichComment
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Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem
Thanks for this and other responses. The loose #2 terminal is on my old TI unit. It was replaced by the new unit a couple of years ago. What concerns is that on the new unit two of the terminals are shorting to ground, opposite of the old unit. HughComment
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Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem
Had same problem.High resistance in bulk head connector from key switch.Comment
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Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem
How did you test for the corrosion? What did you do, remove the bulkhead connector and clean the contacts?? Thanks HughComment
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Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem
Hugh I believe it was the black and pink stripe wire to the bulkhead. Separated the bulkhead connector and cleaned and tightened the terminal haven't had a problem since. You may see some corrosion on the terminal also.Comment
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Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem
Gents, What is the function of the Blk/Pink wire? I don't have a wiring diagram in front of me. I'm not sure what this has to do with the issue.
Yes, one could start checking things here and there, perform a complete harness test and the cleaning of all Twinlock pin pairs(both plugs and mating panel connectors), wiring, splices, etc, etc............
Or one could take a methodical approach to diagnosis by starting somewhere in the circuit and based on findings......go back towards the source, or continue towards the destination. Personally, and Professionally, I like the methodical approach more than the peek and poke method.
Hugh, your note regarding "shorting to ground" difference between old and new is really a relative term. Are these the SAME boards from the same manufacturer? If not, all bets are off for comparison measurements. Besides that, digital electronic circuits typically have very low internal resistance as you're reading the values between transistor junctions and internal parallel components. When you say shorted to ground, are you using a highly sensitive ohmmeter capable of measurements in the tenths of ohms? Are you shorting your meter leads together, recording the test result value, then subtracting the meter/lead error from the actual terminal to ground readings? I think you may be chasing a ghost.
I would continue to suggest that you try the approach that I described the other day in my first reply.
RichComment
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Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem
Hugh you can take 10 minutes to check bulkhead connections or spend unnecessary cash to find out it's not the problem. I'm sorry if the professionals don't agree but it happened to me so just a place to start. Black with pink is 12 volts from ignition to coil good luckComment
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Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem
Hugh in Richards diagnostic dart board there is mention of black with pink wire from ignition so as I stated I would start there.Comment
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Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem
Charles,
Apologies if I seemed a bit haughty. That's really not the way I intended it to sound. Please accept my sincere concern about this.
BTW, that flow diagram is a copy the Corvette Service Manual troubleshooting chart that Dave Fiedler has on his website.
IGN power is a starting point as that is the source of power, however, in TI it's not to the coil, but to the TI module via the TI harness. If the Blk/Pink is open circuit or poor connection, and it could very well be, that would definitely cause a no start/no spark problem.
One can start at the source or the destination. My approach was the destination, final raw DC voltage destination out of the TI module before high voltage spark.....the coil+.
The problem with the bulkhead connectors are many, but many times, in the process of diagnosing electrical faults, one can cause more problems. They're delicate, 50+ year old plastic tabs on the fuse panel and are prone to breakage. The more you get physical with them the more risky it is. One cannot easily test voltage at the bulkhead connector as it's wrapped in harness tape. Yes it's easy to check there but there is risk.
If he uses a voltmeter connected to coil+, a simple exercise that takes a minute or two, this will tell him if everything is good from the battery cable to engine harness via the bulkhead to the IGN switch, then to dash harness, back to the bulkhead, then to the TI harness(via resistance wire), then into and out of the TI module, then back through the TI harness, then to the coil+.
If he gets proper voltage at coil+ with IGN on(no crank), in a quick test he's verifying about 90% of the entire ignition system. If not, he can then trace back toward the source. He ultimately could find it to be at the Blk/Pink as you've experienced.
RichComment
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Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem
First, let me try to better describe the parts. The 'new' TI unit that has been on the car for the past couple of years was purchased from Paragon and is a Lectric Limited part. The 'old' TI unit was taken off the car when the new unit was installed. The old unit the an OEM style unit. The old unit was replaced because I put up with an intermittent starting problem for some 15 years. I installed a new TI wire harness when I installed the new unit. The car started and ran great for some 2 years till this past month.
Second, my wording on the test results was incorrect, terminals 1 and 2 on the new unit are not shorted to ground (this wording might suggest a dead short or a '0' reading on the ohm meter) but both terminals are bleeding to ground. I think that better describes what's happening.
I'm going to reinstall the new TI unit so I can run the recommended test on the '+' side of the coil. I should have done this in the first place?@#$!!. HughComment
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