1964 FI with TI Starting Problem

[Ken A.]

Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem

I suspect you have 2 bad modules from your original description of the problem.

[Hugh G.]

Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem

Thought I posted this last night?? This is the type of thing that makes me want to limit my electrical/electronic endeavors to changing light bulbs!
The flowing are the results of the test(s) recommended by Richard M. (thanks):
Ignition Switch OFF:Ignition Switch ON:
1. Voltage between coil ‘+’ and ground 7.25 to 7.34. Boarder line bad??
Additional Diagnoses:
1. Moved voltmeter from ‘+’ to ‘-‘. Voltage reading was 1.5 REPLACE COIL!!
2. Went to the ohmmeter method test. With one lead connected to ground I got a reading of INFINITY!@#?&%!!
Again I’m not the brightest bulb on the tree but if I’m reading these tests result right, I need to replace the magnetic pickup (the rotation test), the coil (the circuit resistance test) and the TI unit. HELP
No luck with the video?!@#

[Richard M.]

Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem

Hugh, My comments below embedded in your text in green.

Thought I posted this last night?? This is the type of thing that makes me want to limit my electrical/electronic endeavors to changing light bulbs!
The flowing are the results of the test(s) recommended by Richard M. (thanks):
Ignition Switch OFF:

1. Resistance between the two wires harness into he distributor: 600 ohms—PASSED Good
a. Wiggled and moved harness, no effect on ohms reading. Good
b. Removed distributor cap:
First rotated the pickup CCW, just for an instant the meter jumped to approx 1050 ohms. Normal*
Subsequent rotations were right at 600 ohms.
I then rotated the pickup CW. On each turn the meter when all over the place from 600 to infinity with each reading lasting only an instant before going back to 600. Normal* I have a video but not sure if I’ll be able load it.

*Normal - This is because when you rotate the pole piece you are creating a magnetic field just like a generator and output is a small voltage which will affect a static resistance reading. Under normal operation, this "pulse" is a AC voltage which triggers the TI Module to then provide its output as a higher amplitude pulse to the Ignition coil to generate spark.

Based on your tests I feel that the distributor Pickup Coil is good.
Good

Ignition Switch ON:
1. Voltage between coil ‘+’ and ground 7.25 to 7.34. Boarder line bad?? This is at the high end of the spec but may be related to the actual coil input resistance range or a issue with the TI Module. Since you see voltage within range this eliminates that bulkhead Blk/Pink wire harness connection as a hard fault.

Next, I would remove the Positive coil wire from the coil and measure the Coil+ to Coil- with your ohmmeter. Make sure to touch the 2 leads together first and record the reading. A TI coil should measure apx .5 to .7 ohms. Higher is acceptable but may cause high RPM issues. Non TI coils are in the range of 1.2 ohms +/- a tenth or so.


Additional Diagnoses:
1. Moved voltmeter from ‘+’ to ‘-‘. Voltage reading was 1.5 REPLACE COIL!! ???

2. Went to the ohmmeter method test. With one lead connected to ground I got a reading of INFINITY!@#?&%!!
Again I’m not the brightest bulb on the tree but if I’m reading these tests result right, I need to replace the magnetic pickup (the rotation test), the coil (the circuit resistance test) and the TI unit. HELP
No luck with the video?!@#

I believe your Pickup Coil is good but it seems you appear to have a defective Ignition coil based on your tests. Since you are seeing output voltage from the TI module with IGN on, I feel the TI Module may be good.

For diagnostic purposes, if you have a stock Points Coil, you can try that to see if the condition improves and get the ignition functioning and a running engine.

If still a issue it may be time to run some static resistance test measurements on yout TI Harness. There are 2 build in resistances in the harness that have soldered joints which may be intermittent.


If you'd like to see some of the actual waveforms which show the pulses I talk about coming from the Pickup coil and the TI Module, See this thread.
https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthre...sis-and-Repair

This Post has a sample.
https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthre...194#post779194

Rich

[Russ S.]

Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem

I know nothing about FI but just have a concern on the amount of starting fluid you use(2 second burst) I welcome others opinion here, but that much starting fluid is over kill and could be harmful. I have never used more than about a half second shot.

spark problem

[Hugh G.]

Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem

Russ, I agree with you on the use of starter fluid. Probably caused some of the leaks I have. Switching to WD 40 IF I need a starter boost after solving my ignition problem and installing a new battery.
Richard, your starting to make me feel there is hope for my ignition system. Will test the TI coil in tomorrow as well as find my spare coil(s) both of which should be for a regular ignition system. Thank you for the guidance and helping interpret the results.

[Hugh G.]

Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem

Pulled the coil today. Checked it and several other spare coils and the results are:
1. Existing coil, 1.8 ohms. Not identifying marks except it has a brown top and the terminals are not 180 degrees apart.
2. Mallory coil, 1.4 ohms. Chrome.
3. No name 1.5 ohms. No identifying marks except the bottom is chrome.
4. Delco 270 B-R, 1.9 ohms.
The existing coil has been in the car for over 31 years. The other coils were just acquired with other parts. I've never used any of them. Hugh

[Richard M.]

Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem

Pulled the coil today. Checked it and several other spare coils and the results are:
1. Existing coil, 1.8 ohms. Not identifying marks except it has a brown top and the terminals are not 180 degrees apart.
2. Mallory coil, 1.4 ohms. Chrome.
3. No name 1.5 ohms. No identifying marks except the bottom is chrome.
4. Delco 270 B-R, 1.9 ohms.
The existing coil has been in the car for over 31 years. The other coils were just acquired with other parts. I've never used any of them. Hugh

Hugh, None of those are TI coils, but as I said before, a non TI coil can work with certain TI Modules. Obviously the mongrel coil that was in the car for a long time worked. Maybe it's life is now over.

If the input resistance of the primary winding is valid, it could still be bad as the secondary winding (the high voltage output to the dist) could be open. You can check if open...Meter Gnd to (-), meter Pos to tower sparkplug output. You should see K ohms on the order of ~4k to ~15k, but based on manufacturer it will vary. But a real test is on the engine at normalized temperature. Coils often fail hot.

For a simple exercise after you check their secondary resistances, you could try any of the others as a test. I'd try the Delco first. The stock coil was 1115176. Most GM TI coils' input resistance specs are ~.38 to .51 ohms, secondary 6.5k to 9.5k ohms.

Rich

[Ken A.]

Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem

Hugh, None of those are TI coils, but as I said before, a non TI coil can work with certain TI Modules. Obviously the mongrel coil that was in the car for a long time worked. Maybe it's life is now over.

If the input resistance of the primary winding is valid, it could still be bad as the secondary winding (the high voltage output to the dist) could be open. You can check if open...Meter Gnd to (-), meter Pos to tower sparkplug output. You should see K ohms on the order of ~4k to ~15k, but based on manufacturer it will vary. But a real test is on the engine at normalized temperature. Coils often fail hot.

For a simple exercise after you check their secondary resistances, you could try any of the others as a test. I'd try the Delco first. The stock coil was 1115176. Most GM TI coils' input resistance specs are ~.38 to .51 ohms, secondary 6.5k to 9.5k ohms.

Rich

Secondary is 12.5 K as a TI coil is "hotter" than a points coil. It sounds like his whole system needs replacing, piece by piece.

[Richard M.]

Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem

Secondary is 12.5 K as a TI coil is "hotter" than a points coil. It sounds like his whole system needs replacing, piece by piece.

Ken, My data is obviously different from yours regarding the coil secondary value. I let someone borrow my NOS Delco 207 coil last week so I can't measure it for comparison. I would think your data is more accurate than mine so I'll need to update mine. Thanks.

His TI module is only a few years old, and a LL/M&H unit. Too bad he didn't buy the "Green One" with the lifetime warranty, as if that M&H turns out bad, now or later, it's a throwaway. However he's getting a DC amplitude output from it to the coil+ so it may in fact be doing "something". If he had a scope he'd be able to see if it at least has a pulsed AC component or not.

But you know me......."Mr Must Find Root Cause", so if I had that car/TI system in front of me it'd be a little easier to diagnose.

Rich

[Hugh G.]

[Richard M.]

Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem

Hugh, I agree....use the Delco coil for your re-test. Let's take one step at a time and try to narrow down the fault. I suggest you change one item at a time when diagnosing so you can be more confident of test results along the way. Many times in the heat of fault finding it gets frustrating and you want to just throw parts/money at it to get it going. This can cause more confusion.

Try not to get discouraged about your prior acquisitions. After your results we all can talk about the next path for replacement items. Who knows, maybe it's some subtle thing that we haven't thought out.

Rich

[Hugh G.]

Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem

What can I say, IT STARTED!!!! I installed the Delco 270 B-R coil, verified the voltage at the coil (‘+’ to ground), started out at 7.43v then bled down and held steady at 6.25v. With my in-line test light in series with the #7 plug wire I cranked the engine for not more that 3 seconds with the test light pulsing. The real surprise was that it tried to START!! No WD-40 or starting fluid, yet it tried to start with a minimum of cranking. NEVER in 31 years did it start so quickly after setting for 4 weeks without help. I removed the test light, cranked the engine again for 3 or 4 second to have it start and run great!! I let it run for about 2 minutes without a hitch. I have a significant gas leak so I could not run it for too long.
Now I need some guidance on what TI coil should I buy. While it is on order I will attack the fuel leak. I just purchased a FI rebuild kit but am hoping I can get to/repair the leaking line and hold off the over-haul till later.
THANKS TO EVERYONE, especially Richard for hanging in there with me.
With my 80^th birthday coming up this Sunday I’d say this gift is about as good as it can get with the exception of my excellent health. Hugh

[Richard M.]

Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem

Hugh, Great! You did a excellent job diagnosing the system. You should feel proud and I congratulate you for your perseverance.

Good Timing.....( pun intended) ....A Happy Birthday wish to you and please keep us all posted how things are going.

Rich
ps Please be extra careful with that leak issue. You may want to start another thread when you get into that one for separate coverage.

[John M.]

Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem

Hugh
I've been following this saga closely because I have a car with the same TI problem. Great work Rich and Hugh. I'm inspired to get off my butt and try the diagnosis.
Have a great birthday! 80, awesome!
John

[John D.]

Re: 1964 FI with TI Starting Problem

Happy Birthday Hugh. Congratulations on getting your 64 TI started. The other fuel leak you probably have is the spider to fuel bowl supply lines.
O'rings are leaking. Don't run the car anymore. Wait until you fix this. I had a customer with a 64 that lost his car and most of his garage because of cheap o'rings. Call me if you need info. John