Barrett Jackson & Matching #'s

[Bill M.]

Re: Barrett Jackson & Matching #'s

I remember about 25 years ago there was a story about a corvette dealer in New England that sold a matching number mid year fuel car that was later found to not have the original motor but a restamp. I believe a court of law ruled that matching numbers means just that, not that the motor was original.

[Michael J.]

Re: Barrett Jackson & Matching #'s

I think the legal language on purchase contracts many Corvette dealers have is instructive. Here is what one says:

Q.

What does numbers match mean?

A.

It may be easier to explain that the term "numbers match" has nothing to do with originality. Numbers match is a term used to describe the proper numbers on a particular engine: a) stamp pad (machining date & VIN derivative), b) cast number (rear of block), c) cast date (location varies)... and other components of the car. Beyond this, in many cases determining what is truly "original" can be extremely challenging for even the most experienced judges and is at the mercy of subjectivity.

[Stewart L.]

Re: Barrett Jackson & Matching #'s

On a 67 427 435 Green/Saddle Roadster that went through the description in the catalog stated that the color was verified by a non original trim tag! Nothing about matching numbers, no NCRS documentation. It sold for $104K

[Rob A.]

Re: Barrett Jackson & Matching #'s

The points regarding “matching numbers”, “Upgraded to…” and “non-original trim tag” being used by Barrett-Jackson are good and fair for both buyers and sellers. I have found that in the past 3 years Barrett-Jackson is very consistent, accurate, and transparent about the descriptions being used.

When Barrett-Jackson allows the term “original engine” or “original drivetrain” in the description it comes with independent verification from Roy Sinor, Jerry McNiesh, Kevin Marty, David Wise and Jim Mattison. These guys are very busy prior to the car being advertised or crossing the block, inspecting all cars being represented as “original”/”original drivetrain”. There has been no mention that Barrett-Jackson highlights any changes made to the cars description prior tocrossing the block.

You can find lots of humor in the fluffing of the sellers descriptions but if you even slightly pay attention you can get knowledge of the cars originality.

In comparison Mecum makes no attempt to correct or adjust a seller’s descriptions of their cars. It is absolutely buyers beware and they are clear about that in their bidder and seller agreements. Mecum does offer the buyer 24-hours after purchase to dispute a seller’s claim of “original”.

[Roy S.]

Re: Barrett Jackson & Matching #'s

Guys, I probably should not even respond to this but I am going too.

First at Barrett-Jackson their were cars removed from the auction because the owner was unwilling to accept the changes Barrett-Jackson requested after their team of experts reviewed the cars.

Second anybody that subscribes to the term "matching numbers" or "numbers matching" does so at their own risk because frankly there is no accepted, published, agreed definition of what that means.

Third vehicles displayed with engine pads that are obvious re stamps have the term matching numbers removed from the description - now somebody has to define obvious re stamp, because obvious to me may not be obvious to you.

Fourth there was no car this year that I am aware of that crossed the block with the terms "Verified by the non original trim tag" might have started off that way but once the car card did not say that when it sold.

Fifth nobody verifies or certifies anything at Barrett-Jackson, however Barrett-Jackson is the only auction house that performs any due diligence to make sure the description is at least reviewed for its accuracy.


Finally when you see the terms date code correct, period correct, upgraded to, non oem trim tag, etc., in more cases than not that is a description that has been modified by the team of experts on site when the cars arrived.

OK I'm off the rant, its a lot of work and the team Barrett-Jackson has assembled works hard to review each vehicle in their realm of expertise, none of those changes come without serious discussion with the owners and often times cars end up not crossing the block.

If anybody wants to know something about a vehicle we have inspected at Barrett-Jackson prior to the auction or even post auction all they have to do is ask, it continues to amaze me how many ask post purchase instead of pre.

[Rob A.]

Re: Barrett Jackson & Matching #'s

Thanks for weighing in Roy. The steps Barrett Jackson has made in the past few years have been extremely beneficial to the hobby, buyers and sellers.

[William F.]

Re: Barrett Jackson & Matching #'s

Thanks, Roy.
But not clear on one thing. In your inspections for BJ, do you give opinions as to whether VIN and trim tags are legit and whether pad stamp is "typical factory appearance" or obvious (to you) a poor restamp?

[Roy S.]

Re: Barrett Jackson & Matching #'s

Thanks, Roy.
But not clear on one thing. In your inspections for BJ, do you give opinions as to whether VIN and trim tags are legit and whether pad stamp is "typical factory appearance" or obvious (to you) a poor restamp?

That's not one question it is at least three.

If we detect a non OEM Vin plate and there is no evidence that a state agency has authorized its usage we check the vehicle for a secondary VIN, if the secondary VIN is good we make the description read it is a non OEM VIN plate that matches the secondary VIN. If the non OEM VIN does not match the secondary VIN we offer the choice of selling the car on a bill of sale or removing it from the auction.

If we detect a non OEM Trim Tag the description is changed to identify that also, or the car is removed from the auction.

Anybody that subscribes to the term "matching numbers" or "numbers matching" does so at their own risk because frankly there is no accepted, published, agreed definition of what that means. Vehicles displayed with engine pads that are obvious re stamps have the term matching numbers removed from the description - now somebody has to define obvious re stamp, because obvious to me may not be obvious to you and vice versa for that matter.

[William F.]

Re: Barrett Jackson & Matching #'s

Thanks, Roy. Appreciate your work.

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Barrett Jackson & Matching #'s

I have been to the BJ auction and many many others starting 30 years ago as I lived in Auburn In. where all this car auction started. I sold a Ford 427/425 HP 63 Conv. & a 70 LT-1. I can say that BJ & Roy in particular dose as much as they can to make sure that the cars are what they are represented as such. That is more than I can say about some other auctions.

[Mark E.]

Re: Barrett Jackson & Matching #'s

I don't get the appeal of auctions to enthusiasts.

If I'm selling, many of the bidders are dealers or speculators looking for a quick flip. If I'm buying, there's limited opportunity to thouroughly inspect and drive the car. Many of the cars are subjected to a superficial, often damaging and sometimes deceptive "make ready" process. And whether buying or selling, there's the expensive auction fees and ear splitting yodelling to endure.

I prefer a private transaction with another enthusiast. They tend to be a more authentic experience. But it seems like auctions have gained in popularity, while private sales are less common.

So obviously I'm in the minority with this view.

[Michael J.]

Re: Barrett Jackson & Matching #'s

I don't get the appeal of auctions to enthusiasts.

If I'm selling, many of the bidders are dealers or speculators looking for a quick flip. If I'm buying, there's limited opportunity to thouroughly inspect and drive the car. Many of the cars are subjected to a superficial, often damaging and sometimes deceptive "make ready" process. And whether buying or selling, there's the expensive auction fees and ear splitting yodelling to endure.

I prefer a private transaction with another enthusiast. They tend to be a more authentic experience. But it seems like auctions have gained in popularity, while private sales are less common.

So obviously I'm in the minority with this view.

You may be in the minority, but I fully agree. I have only bought one car at an auction, and I swore never again. Add to your list the very difficult procedures and guarantees BJ and some others add to even allow you to bid, where neither of my banks would sign their "bidder guarantee form" (one bank told me no bank in their right mind would sign it) and you get stuck bidding through a dealer who is qualified for an even higher commission. Person to person is always the best way, but even that has some hassles and problems. No perfect way, so the car had better be good to incentivize you to do it, and then there is MVD to deal with........don't get me started on them......

[Mark E.]

Re: Barrett Jackson & Matching #'s

And can someone explain the role/relationship our NCRS has with auction houses?

[John W.]

Re: Barrett Jackson & Matching #'s

Having been around awhile I will take a stab at explaining the NCRS relationship with auction houses.

First there is no relationship with any auction house except Barrett Jackson.

Barrett Jackson approached NCRS some years back about cars that purported to have NCRS awards.

Barrett Jackson made a deal that they would provide NCRS with booth space to promote NCRS and sell some NCRS products (mostly Technical Information Guide and Judging Manual) in return NCRS would validate any claim of an NCRS award for a Corvette going though the auction. Cars with NCRS Awards would be allowed to appear with an NCRS Decal in the window. Those without NCRS Awards would not be able to display any NCRS decal or licenses plate.

If a car was advertised as having a Top Flight NCRS would check our records to verify the award.

This in no way guarantees the car is still in the condition it was when the award was earned. All of the original parts could have been replaced with non original parts that were used to restore another car.

[Mark E.]

Re: Barrett Jackson & Matching #'s

Thanks John.

It sounds like you're saying NCRS checks its awards records only, not the car itself- which makes sense.

Maybe the VIN is checked to identify the car?