Factory applied material vs overrestored points

[Bob B.]

There seems to be a definition question re points deduct for a overstored paint job, a beautiful 69 435 coupe was judged at a chapter meet in CA a couple weeks ago paint was substantially over restored, right color yellow but perfect coverage everywhere and no orange peel. Our NCRS paint flow chart directly addresses over restored as 20% originality deduct
BUT IF the paint does NOT appear to be factory applied material and the door jams are shiney we fall right in to 100% deduct and of coarse no condition judging. That is a huge deduct based solely on the ol lacquer vs base/clear paint issue.
Sorry, I have not been to a judging retreat where I am sure this has been discussed at length.
Senior judges- how about some direction here ?
Thanks,
Bob

[Harry S.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

Bob, sounds like you are describing the worst case scenario. The car:

1) lots of paint everywhere
2) From a DOI standpoint you can count your nose hair in any reflection
3) The paint on the drip rails and the door and body jams look just like the rest of the car.

Unless there is something I missed this is not over restored. This is 100% deduct on originality and condition. The material should not affect the outcome. Years ago I did a 100% deduct on a lacquer car. The owner with all the best intentions polished ever exterior painted surface so it resembled a mirror.

[Bob B.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

Harry You are correct, over restored for 69, looks more like 2017 Vette quality. But if we don't open hood or doors it boils down to paint everywhere and DOI as a new car so what constitutes OVERRESTORED other than lots of paint and DOI that is a LOT of point spread of a
vague difference
Bob

[Harry S.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

Harry You are correct, over restored for 69, looks more like 2017 Vette quality. But if we don't open hood or doors it boils down to paint everywhere and DOI as a new car so what constitutes OVERRESTORED other than lots of paint and DOI that is a LOT of point spread of a
vague difference
Bob

Let me try this by example. I own a zero deduct car and a 20% deduct car. From 20 feet away they both look the same from an application vantage point. One car is black and one car is silver blue. When you get close the application of paint below the belt line becomes less and less. It's as if the painter had a bad back and did not want to bent over. There is very little paint on the lower doors and next to nothing on the door bottoms. The front and rear valance have little paint. On the black car the paint application is the same everywhere, thus over restored.

[Bob B.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

EXACTLY, perfect example so, the black over restored car is a 20% deduct- NOT 100% deduct based on paint application.
Is that black car BC/CC ? I can live with that 20% deduct for over restored BC/CC with a bit over orange peel & dull door jams, under conv lid, rain gutters THANKS for your input are you a senior judge ?
I am looking for a senior judge input- TERRY ????

[Harry S.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

The black car is BC only.

I sent you an email.

[Bob B.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

Harry- You are exactly what I was looking to hear from- THANK YOU

[Gene M.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

There seems to be a definition question re points deduct for a overstored paint job, a beautiful 69 435 coupe was judged at a chapter meet in CA a couple weeks ago paint was substantially over restored, right color yellow but perfect coverage everywhere and no orange peel. Our NCRS paint flow chart directly addresses over restored as 20% originality deduct
BUT IF the paint does NOT appear to be factory applied material and the door jams are shiney we fall right in to 100% deduct and of coarse no condition judging. That is a huge deduct based solely on the ol lacquer vs base/clear paint issue.
Sorry, I have not been to a judging retreat where I am sure this has been discussed at length.
Senior judges- how about some direction here ?
Thanks,
Bob

I’m going to be as honest as I can without insulting those that disagree. There are two extremes on paint, those that want it pretty and those that want it to actually look as original. The NCRS system is supposed to be presented to look original. This acceptance range has gotten so wide over the years, it is almost meaningless as far as “restoration” is concern. It appears the goal today is to make owners happy with little deductions for attaining the 97% or better scoring. By having higher scores the attendance and support is expected to be better. IMHO
But all that really has nothing to do with how a restored paint job should look. I will refrain from name identity but at the Florida meet there was a yellow BB 67 that was restored correctly and as far as I’m concern the only one there. IMHO
Now understand we are not supposed to be seeking pretty, perfect, overly shined, flawless, perfect paint jobs. The representation of what they should look like has for the NCRS organization has gotten lost.IMHO
The door jam makes or break stipulation just is not realistic to determine degree of correctness or not. One can surely see that from an over all. But that is not the way NCRS scores it. Again IMHO
One should understand the NCRS guide is to make more yes/no as you follow down the chart. But understand it really is only to make owners more accepting of the determination that the paint is not correct. End result is extremely lenient towards incorrect paint. Again IMHO
This is MHO not NCRS inorder to answer your post. NCRS judging should follow the prescribed NCRS chart.

[Bob B.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

Gene, I appreciate your input, I happen to agree with you, and you appear to be a well qualified judge. I am old enough to have owned St Louis cars brand new, the first thing I did with a brand new car is take it to mine in Los Angeles to "Bobbie" for a color sand and polish that could make St Louis rotten quality look great. He probably took half the paint off but I never kept the cars more than a year so not my problem. I saw a silver 67 BB coupe at Bloomington a few years ago that was restored perfectly as it left the factory warts and all- absolutely a thing of beauty-
My question is How much should a "over restored" paint job cost in points I think the 20% on the flow chart is reasonable, Top Flight is still possible Yes it varies from " typical factory" but a 100% deduct just flat kills the score. I personally refuse to put over $100k in a restoration and have a "typical factory 60's=70's lacquer paint job" Again, THANKS for your input the 98% plus Top Flights are a very special restoration I judged a 96 ZR-1 and now that Factory Typical paint was outstanding

[Gene M.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

Gene, I appreciate your input, I happen to agree with you, and you appear to be a well qualified judge. I am old enough to have owned St Louis cars brand new, the first thing I did with a brand new car is take it to mine in Los Angeles to "Bobbie" for a color sand and polish that could make St Louis rotten quality look great. He probably took half the paint off but I never kept the cars more than a year so not my problem. I saw a silver 67 BB coupe at Bloomington a few years ago that was restored perfectly as it left the factory warts and all- absolutely a thing of beauty-
My question is How much should a "over restored" paint job cost in points I think the 20% on the flow chart is reasonable, Top Flight is still possible Yes it varies from " typical factory" but a 100% deduct just flat kills the score. I personally refuse to put over $100k in a restoration and have a "typical factory 60's=70's lacquer paint job" Again, THANKS for your input the 98% plus Top Flights are a very special restoration I judged a 96 ZR-1 and now that Factory Typical paint was outstanding

Bob,
The issue with attempting to say what is too much in words is difficult to type and be sure you COMPLETELY understand my description. The picture in your mind should be a better description than what I could type. You having purchased new Corvettes in the day should have a clear picture in your mind what they SHOULD look like. Many still recall vividly but do not go with it.

Absolutely show finish with clear applied over the color is NOT. And understand anything deviating from that picture in your mind should be deducted for. I'm a tuff judge on this part since I too recall the original as produced look of the 50's and 60's.

Also understand the new accepted criteria for paint is total different from what GM put on these old cars in the day. IMHO do not look at the flight field for correctness of original applied paint. Outside of the yellow car I mentioned in an earlier post I have not seen that attention to detail or a better word lack of to represent a restored paint job as GM sent out the door. It takes a special person to do it correctly.

You can follow down the flow chart with the picture in your mind and arrive at an evaluation total different than another judge looking at the same car.

But.... The judging follows the NCRS chart path. Also but, not with the same results each time.

thank you for your kind words

[Bob B.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

"NOT WITH THE SAME RESULTS EVERY TIME" 20% OR 100% deduct ? exactly my question / issue
My 100% deduct I gave the yellow 69 cost him a Top Flight and I would do it 20% IF I had it to do over, My bad.

Bob

funny story- I ordered a silver 75, when I picked it up from the dealer on a drop ship a piece of newspaper had blown on the wet paint on the drivers door and it left black print in the paint sure hope that car isn't getting judged these days

[Gene M.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

"NOT WITH THE SAME RESULTS EVERY TIME" ..........................

funny story- I ordered a silver 75, when I picked it up from the dealer on a drop ship a piece of newspaper had blown on the wet paint on the drivers door and it left black print in the paint sure hope that car isn't getting judged these days

There are 270 points necessary to be deducted prior to drop from top flight to second flight. No one line item can do that. There is no shame in second flight.

That funny story brings new meaning to being able to being able to read the newspaper in the paint.

[Edward B.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

Not meaning to offend, but I simply do not understand doing something other than my best possible work in order to comport with an imprecise judging guide and subjective interpretations thereof. Where does one stop when creating intentional runs or skimping on applied media on the lower surfaces of a vehicle? Wouldn't a more sensible standard be one that mimics the way GM intended a car to be when it left the factory absent the many errors introduced by human factors in the assembly process.

[William F.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

Or get more realistic on paint and not require owner to make certain areas ugly as long as color and associated factors such as size of metallic particles on metallic paints are correct. IMHO.

[William F.]

Re: Factory applied material vs overrestored points

Looked at it another way how do judges of classic Ferraris, say a 250 GTO or 275 and Mercedes, say a gullwing, judge the paint of these cars? Whether a good modern paint job or want some factory sloppiness (if there was any on these cars originally)