Newbie Trying to Understand CDCIF

[Rick R.]

Help me understand originality deductions/application of CDCIF please. I am studying the 1967 Judging Reference Manual and Technical Information Guides. I have reviewed the areas that are covered by standard deductions, but that only confused me more. It would seem to me that once a part is proven to be not original, that it would deserve a 100% deduction period. A couple of examples:
1) Repo wheel beauty rings in new condition - examination of them reveals that they use a different type of mounting clip from OEM, PROVING that they are repos- end of story- so 100% deduction correct?
2) An exhaust manifold in beautiful condition of the same style and appearance of the OEM manifold. Examination shows that the P/N is incorrect. This PROVES its not original - so again a 100% deduction for originality is deserved. Correct?
In other words, if there is something about a part that PROVES it could not be original, no matter how close it appears, then " end of story."
All comments appreciated that will help me understand CDCIF/standard deductions/originality judging. Thanks.

[Don H.]

Re: Newbie Trying to Understand CDCIF

Rick,
Just because a part has a "not typical production" (or NTP for short) component, that does not automatically say it is a "repro" - you do not use this term as a judge. Using CDCIF (configuration, date, completeness, installation, & finish) you examine all the attributes of the component. Using your example, a '67 beauty ring: Configuration - mostly same as original, clip is different if you can see it when installed; date, OK, no visible date code; completeness, OK; installation, OK; finish, maybe OK, I am not familiar with that part, it could be different. So using that you would take 40% (if the finish is off) of the originality column points, 20% if the finish is correct. Condition is a separate column with points. If a part receives less than 10% originality points, it is not judged for condition and gets 0. An example of that would be a "mag" wheel instead of a hubcap, it would be a full deduct on both originality and condition. This assumes it does not fall under the standard deduct category (tires, battery, etc). I hope this helps, others may be able to explain it better.
Good luck,
Don H.

[David H.]

Re: Newbie Trying to Understand CDCIF

Help me understand originality deductions/application of CDCIF please. I am studying the 1967 Judging Reference Manual and Technical Information Guides.... .... Thanks.

Rick,

Review the Judging Reference Manual (link below)

https://www.ncrs.org/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=78_1_67&products_id=221

Technical Information Guides (year(s) specific) tell you what to judge. Judging Reference Manual tells you how to judge.

Flight judging is based on appearance of originality. Items that do not fall under Standard Deduction guidelines are judged using C.D.C.I.F.

Deductions are made relative to how much appearance of item in question differs from original as described in specific years Tech Info Guide.

Dave

[Mark D.]

Re: Newbie Trying to Understand CDCIF

...1) Repo wheel beauty rings in new condition - examination of them reveals that they use a different type of mounting clip from OEM, PROVING that they are repos- end of story- so 100% deduction...

I think your math is good. You should start judging.

[Paul O.]

Re: Newbie Trying to Understand CDCIF

Rick

C=Configuration=20%
D=Date=20%
C=Complete=20%
I=Installation=20%
F=Finish=20%
Total=100%

Configuration if the item you are judging is not configured as the original it merits a 20% deduction of the available points.

Date is determined in several ways ether by a date code or other attributes such as its configuration or a finishing process that was not used at that time of production 20%, but if you can not determined the date benefit goes to the owner

Completeness if the item has 4 parts to make up the item and only has 3 of them that merits a 5% deduction

Installation is the item installed incorrectly such as it is installed upside down 20%

Finish if the item was plated Black and now painted black or is plated a different color 20%

In general the only time a 100% deduction is made is when a item is totally missing or the item is manufactured by a company that was never used by GM at the time of production. Such as a Fram filter, Edelbrock carburetor etc:

As for the standard deduction it is used to make a faster and more consistent deduction of certain items. If you follow the standard deductions process and apply CDCIF as a test the outcome would be about the same deduction if applied correctly.

As for your examples the Trim rings if the configuration and date are its only issue but the completeness, installation and finish are typical the total deduction is 40%.

Hopefully this is a help to you or I may have muddied the water to much that you now can not see the bottom.

[Donald H.]

Re: Newbie Trying to Understand CDCIF

Rick,

I see in your profile you are in Virginia. I'm in Northern VA (Fairfax County). If you are really interested in understanding judging I would suggest you join the Mid Atlantic Chapter and come to a meeting. We have tech sessions throughout the year and next year (2018) the plan is to have judging at most if not all the meetings.

I still consider myself to be pretty new to NCRS and judging (joined in 2009). During that time I have done two complete body off the frame restorations, a 1960 and a 1966. I took the 60 to a Regional and National meet (I was not a chapter member at the time), and the 66 has been to a Chapter and Regional meet for flight judging.

The best way to fully understand the judging process is to participate. However, contrary to the views of some who are not familiar with NCRS, no one is going to pressure you to have your car judged, or to be judgmental if you don't. Please feel free to contact me if you have any interest in joining the chapter.

[Dick W.]

Re: Newbie Trying to Understand CDCIF

Rick

C=Configuration=20%
D=Date=20%
C=Complete=20%
I=Installation=20%
F=Finish=20%
Total=100%

Configuration if the item you are judging is not configured as the original it merits a 20% deduction of the available points.

Date is determined in several ways ether by a date code or other attributes such as its configuration or a finishing process that was not used at that time of production 20%, but if you can not determined the date benefit goes to the owner

Completeness if the item has 4 parts to make up the item and only has 3 of them that merits a 5% deduction

Installation is the item installed incorrectly such as it is installed upside down 20%

Finish if the item was plated Black and now painted black or is plated a different color 20%

In general the only time a 100% deduction is made is when a item is totally missing or the item is manufactured by a company that was never used by GM at the time of production. Such as a Fram filter, Edelbrock carburetor etc:

As for the standard deduction it is used to make a faster and more consistent deduction of certain items. If you follow the standard deductions process and apply CDCIF as a test the outcome would be about the same deduction if applied correctly.

As for your examples the Trim rings if the configuration and date are its only issue but the completeness, installation and finish are typical the total deduction is 40%.

Hopefully this is a help to you or I may have muddied the water to much that you now can not see the bottom.

Good explanation Paul

[Rick R.]

Re: Newbie Trying to Understand CDCIF

Thanks to all of you who have taken time to reply to "a muddled thinker who fails to grasp the obvious", lol. Very helpful. A little background... At age 62, my current Corvette is my third C2, and I've owned 5 or 6 C3's. All were way better than driver's, but nowhere near Top Flight condition. In recent years I have focused my time on 1931 Cadillacs and a 1937 Cord 812. One of the Cadillacs I took from a basket case to concours condition and it did fairly well on a national level. At my age, one begins to evaluate a little more carefully what activities they want to spend any serious time on. I'm planning to keep my current '67 for awhile, but am unsure if I want to simply keep 'tweaking' on it, or get real serious about trying to take it to the next level and get involved in NCRS judging. It is from this perspective that I am tying to understand the NCRS judging system and decide if it is for me. I must say that the manuals are well worth the money, and the knowledge within NCRS is phenomenal.
I am simply trying to get my head around the concept of looking at a part as other than simply " correct or incorrect." Black or white. It doesn't mean I'm stricter than anyone else- far from it! - the trim rings cited in the example are on my car, and in my mind they are satisfactory for the price, but will never be "correct." It's the idea that you could point to them and say. " those are incorrect.", and instead of honestly (and without taking any offense, because it's true) answering "you're right", I answer " HOW incorrect are they?" Obviously there are many other such items on the car to be dealt with - the rings are just an example. Please don't take my questions as implying criticism of NCRS or its judging system in any form or fashion. I am interested enough to expose my total ignorance of the process via this thread!
For those who have read this far, I'm sorry! Donald and Dave, your posts were very helpful. Mark, thanks for the laugh! Paul, your post hit the nail on the head. I'm ashamed to admit that I didn't even grasp that each of the 5 parts of CDCIF were equally weighted at 20%. I couldn't figure out how deduction amounts were assigned to non standard deduction category parts. I'm sure this is obvious to everyone else. Don Harris, thank you for your kind invitation. I am in Danville.
I am enjoying the manuals and technical discussions. I will continue to lurk on the forum, and will carefully consider where I want to go next in the corvette hobby. Hope to see many of you up the road.
Regards,
Rick R.

[Leif A.]

Re: Newbie Trying to Understand CDCIF

Rick,
Take Don up on his offer and join your local chapter. Take you car to a local chapter meet, "as is", and have it judged. You will learn so much more, not only about your car's current state, but about the judging process and how it works. You can then make up your mind about how you want to go about tinkering with your '67, and if you wan't to proceed to attempt to attain a higher standard. Or, you may just decide to enjoy your car just the way it is. This is an outstanding organization and is sincerely wanting to assist all other members in the endeavors with their "addiction". Welcome aboard.

[Jim S.]

Re: Newbie Trying to Understand CDCIF

Rick, The improvements NCRS has made to Flight judging is to reduce the amount of 'subjectivity' by judges. While it may never be exact, the hope is that a car Flight judged on the West coast will judge within a very few points of how it is judged on the East coast by other qualified judges. CDCIF greatly improves that possibility. And now with the new Concours Judging, owners of "modified" or over restored Corvettes can join in on the fun. A nice C2 with a crate 350 and painted any color of the rainbow can do very well in Concours Judging.

[Rick R.]

Re: Newbie Trying to Understand CDCIF

I just now joined the Mid Atlantic Chapter. Thanks to Don and Leif for encouraging me to do so. Looking forward to some fun times.

[Mike M.]

Re: Newbie Trying to Understand CDCIF

welcome to the MAC/NCRS. a bunch of crazies reside within. mike mccagh

[Michael J.]

Re: Newbie Trying to Understand CDCIF

welcome to the MAC/NCRS. a bunch of crazies reside within. mike mccagh

+1, but the amount of knowledge in that chapter makes it worth all that...........

[Ed H.]

Re: Newbie Trying to Understand CDCIF

Rick, If the bug bites you will find some of the most helpful, friendly, entertaining and encouraging folks around. My experience
started in 1964 when I bought my first a 1956 vett I found NCRS in 1999 when I decided to buy a 57 basket case. Six years later
I was handed a beautiful 18X24 plaque bearing the VIN number and photo acknowledging my 6 years of love and pride "I DID THIS
ALL BY MYSELF". There is no better feeling than to have your friends and family applaud your efforts. Now after that experience the bug not only bit me but he has shared my body with his whole damn family. Hope to meet you and your pride and joy.

[Gene M.]

Re: Newbie Trying to Understand CDCIF

Understand the most important part to the CDCIF is the configuration. Case in point the part is not at all like the original say it is a Filco part where a Delco S/B then the date, finish what ever is meaningless. The part is 100% deduct. See the spirit of the CDCIF is to give part credit to substitute parts that reflect closely to the originals. If the date is fake and “edited” on the part that is a no go.... deduction. If part S/B plated and is painted that is a no go....deduction.

Understand the more close to the original the better. The spirit of CDCIF is to break down the attributes of parts that truely resemble the original not to give a pass to an inferior factsimily of the original.