DOT 5 - Is this new to anyone else?

[Joe L.]

Re: DOT 5 - Is this new to anyone else?

To answer Mark Mead, I do not know what brand or how old the fluid was because I borrowed a pressure bleeder from a shop that restores Corvettes and uses silicone exclusively.
I will real interested in how Don Harris's job on his '67 works out. I started with all new lines and rebuilt calipers and master from Lone Star. I thought mine was going to be OK as well but after ~ 6 months of setting, I have two badly leaking calipers.

Don------


Based upon what you described above, you used a DOT 5 fluid that resulted in what amounted to relative quick and massive leaking. Unnoticed (as would be the case for most drivers) that would quickly result in complete brake system failure. As I've said many times before, how any brake fluid that could cause such a problem could possibly meet federal motor vehicle safety standards is not only beyond my understanding but, actually, an absurdity. Either the fluid or the brake seals COULD NOT HAVE MET FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS.

You might want to ask the shop that you obtained the pressure bleeder with fluid to show you the container that the fluid they use is supplied in.

[Patrick H.]

[Joe L.]

Re: DOT 5 - Is this new to anyone else?

The 77 I’m working on currently has DOT5 fluid in it from years ago. The owner wishes to continue using it, if possible, but has to install a new repro MC instead of the chrome one on the car if he wants judging points.

I bought Raybestos seals for the MC and calipers, as it is the only brand that says it is DOT 5 compatible.

I bought Cartel DOT 5 Blake fluid, as it is the only brand that states it is compatible with natural and synthetic rubber. And, it has been mentioned here previously.

I used a micrometer on the Raybestos master cylinder rubber seals, and a week ago dropped them in the Cartel to see what would happen. Photos on the internet show seals that allegedly bloat quickly. I can tell you that a week later I don’t have to use a micrometer on them yet - they have not swelled one bit. Other than being wet from the brake fluid, they look exactly like the moment I dropped them in.

I have a week or so before I will be at the point of installing brake parts, but at this point intend on using the Cartel fluid.

Patrick

Patrick------


Cartel is also a brand that specifically states that it meets Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 116. Any fluid that does not specifically state that it meets this standard I would not even consider using. Any fluid of unknown brand or origin I would not even consider using. Any "off-brand" fluid that says it meets the FMVSS I would be leery of and probably would not use.

As a matter of fact, the above not only goes for DOT 5 fluid, as far as I'm concerned, it goes for DOT 3, DOT 4, or DOT 5.1. They need to also meet the FMVSS and specifically so-state on the container. I'd also be leery of using any "off-brand" fluid of these ratings regardless of what it says on the container.

Something else I've noticed which I forgot but just recalled: some of the brands of DOT 5 say on the label that they meet FMVSS 116. Some say they meet "FMVSS 116 minimum wet boiling point of XXX". In the latter case, do they mean the fluid meets all of the FMVSS 116 requirements including the minimum wet boiling point which they choose to point out OR do they mean that it meets just the minimum wet boiling point portion of FMVSS 116? There's a SIGNIFICANT difference between these two interpretations.

[Jim L.]

Re: DOT 5 - Is this new to anyone else?

I can't help wondering if the seals which reportedly developed leaks might have originated in a country which doesn't take our federal safety standards to heart.

Just sayin......

[Joe L.]

Re: DOT 5 - Is this new to anyone else?

I can't help wondering if the seals which reportedly developed leaks might have originated in a country which doesn't take our federal safety standards to heart.

Just sayin......

Jim------


Perhaps the kind that some caliper rebuilders or other suppliers might purchase in bulk???

[Mathew S.]

Re: DOT 5 - Is this new to anyone else?

Raybestos shows the are a product of China as well on the boxes. Not sure if some vendors are skimping on materials as well.

[Patrick H.]

Re: DOT 5 - Is this new to anyone else?

No matter what country the product is made in, the buyer has to provide the specifications.
Poor specs = poor products.

Or, garbage in = garbage out, if you will.

Checked the seals about an hour ago. They have not swelled one iota.

PH

[Joe L.]

Re: DOT 5 - Is this new to anyone else?

Raybestos shows the are a product of China as well on the boxes. Not sure if some vendors are skimping on materials as well.

Mathew-----

As I've said before, just because something is made in China does not necessarily mean it's bad. There are many Tier 1 OEM suppliers that manufacture in China. You'll find a lot of China-sourced components on current production cars, including Corvettes. I'm sure that major auto manufacturers quality-check and specification-check the components they receive from China-based manufacturers just as they always have for US-based manufacturers.

I expect that major aftermarket brands like Raybestos, ACDelco, Wagner, etc. have rigid product specifications for products they sell under their brands. As Patrick says, they have product specifications and enforce them. Their brand integrity depends on it. Brand integrity has great value and they don't want to "flush it down the drain".

Now, when one is talking about "no-name" brands that package their products (caliper piston seals, for instance) in bags of 500 with every effort made to cut per-piece costs to the absolute bare minimum, quality may very well be sacrificed to save even a penny a piece. To be sure, these are not Tier 1 OEM suppliers. Nor are they likely to be suppliers to the major aftermarket brands.

[Don A.]

Re: DOT 5 - Is this new to anyone else?

I just spoke to Vince Castillo of Cartel Products and we discussed this ongoing saga. He confirmed for me that their formulation of silicone has not changed in ~ 30 years and also that their product conforms to Mil spec PRF-46176B. He also committed to work with Lone Star to determine who the supplier is for their EPDM seals and commissioning some lab testing performed to scientifically determine if their fluid does not exceed the allowable swelling. I told him if he proves that, the customers will be beating a path to his door. Vince agreed to keep me updated and I will do the same on this thread.

[Domenic T.]

Re: DOT 5 - Is this new to anyone else?

Patrick,
Takes weeks to get them to swell.

Dom

[Calvin M.]

Re: DOT 5 - Is this new to anyone else?

I've used silicone in my '57 for over 20 years with zero issues. Of course the fluid and seals are far from 'new'. The gallon jug I used is from North America Oil Co., Georgia, USA, and meets FMVSS No. 116 (500 degrees). I also have an equally old but sealed pint from General Electric Silicone Products Div. which meets the requirements of 116, as well as the Dept. of the Army Military Spec. MIL-B-46176.
As of a year ago, the purple tint of the fluid in my mc has turned toward amber, but I understand this is normal and has no affect on function. Apparently, the purple dye used to identify DOT 5 disappears over time.

[Joe L.]

Re: DOT 5 - Is this new to anyone else?

I've used silicone in my '57 for over 20 years with zero issues. Of course the fluid and seals are far from 'new'. The gallon jug I used is from North America Oil Co., Georgia, USA, and meets FMVSS No. 116 (500 degrees). I also have an equally old but sealed pint from General Electric Silicone Products Div. which meets the requirements of 116, as well as the Dept. of the Army Military Spec. MIL-B-46176.
As of a year ago, the purple tint of the fluid in my mc has turned toward amber, but I understand this is normal and has no affect on function. Apparently, the purple dye used to identify DOT 5 disappears over time.

Calvin------


That's correct. Silicone fluid changes in color from purple to amber over time, especially when it's installed in a brake system. The change in color has no effect on the functionality of the fluid. The one bad thing about the change in color is that after it changes, it's so much harder for folks to distinguish it from glycol fluids which are about the same color. I wished they used a coloring agent that remained purple for the life of the fluid.

[Tom B.]

Re: DOT 5 - Is this new to anyone else?

I recently checked the DOT 5 at Advance Auto and O'Reilly's and they both say meets, or meets or ecxceeds FMVSS No. 116. No mention of the military spec. For what it's worth.

Tom

[Jim D.]

Re: DOT 5 - Is this new to anyone else?

From a DOT 5 container at the local parts house.

[Joe L.]

Re: DOT 5 - Is this new to anyone else?

From a DOT 5 container at the local parts house.

Jim------

Just meeting the FMVSS might be enough but I'd MUCH RATHER see what you found on this label for any DOT 5 I'd use.