Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc - NCRS Discussion Boards

Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

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  • Duke W.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • January 1, 1993
    • 15610

    #31
    Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

    Originally posted by Brian Kane (47891)
    Duke,
    I have been following your recs on oil for years and thanks for the reminder, I converted to HOAT antifreeze about 6 years back so time to change that too. I too do the 2 year thing at 1k miles coincidentally.

    Anyway, my neighbor belongs to a Healy club. They had a guest speaker who was an oil industry engineer with credentials to speak on it (please don't ask because i wasn't there) but his spiel on the diesel oil thing was that it has way too much detergent and washes off everything including the oil. You should just buy the best quality non synthetic recommended grade oil and add Camshield. I'm not buying it because diesel is an internal combustion engine and has much the same lube needs. I always understood detergent as a surfactant that held contaminants in suspension for the filter to remove. Not that it would let oil run off a cylinder wall like rain off a waxed hood.

    I wondered if you had heard this slant or what your take on it is.
    Thanks,
    Brian
    Even though you described the speaker as an "oil industry engineer..." I smell "salesmen".

    This "detergent myth" you describe is a common pitch from boutique oil and additive salesmen. Other than differences in the combustion process diesel and gasoline engines have the same basic lubrication requirements, but the C-category tests are more severe and they have a richer additive package due to the more harmful and corrosive combustion byproducts including soot. The lower limitation of P in current S-category oils is the primary reason why C-category should be used in vintage engines with sliding surface valve train components. Everything else in C-category oil is a bonus for the same price as S-category.

    Consider than modern over-the-road HD diesel engines are expected to run at least 500K miles between overhauls and some can run a million. If the detergents "wash off everything include the oil", how can they run this far?

    TOTAL NONSENSE!!!

    HD CNG engines are usually HD diesel designs modified to hold a spark plug instead of injector and slightly lower CR, and they specify C-category oils.

    As I described in my "Engine Oil for Vintage Corvettes" article (The link is in post #12. Send it to your A-H buddy) prior to the P limitation that began with SL, most name brand engine oils that were marketed to car owners were dual-rated and were perfectly suitable for for diesels, and conversely, modern C-category oils are dual rated for SI engine service.

    About ten years ago my chapter said they had invited a guy to talk about engine oil who was clearly a salesman. I suggested they cancel him and I'd do the presentation, and that led to my oil article that was originally published in The Corvette Restorer, which I wrote to dispel all the marking BS and myths that are floating around.

    You can spend the rest of you life reading the "Bob the Oil guy" web site. I looked at it in the past, and though I'm sure most of the posters have good intentions, I never saw one who gave me any indication that they had any educational/professional experience in engine lubrication technology or oil formulation and testing, and I don't ever recall seeing any mention of the API, which is the organization that establishes engine, transmission, and axle oil specifications for the entire automotive industry including HD trucks and the military.

    The world is full of people who are well intentioned, but clueless.

    Duke

    Comment

    • Dick W.
      Former NCRS Director Region IV
      • June 30, 1985
      • 10483

      #32
      Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

      The overall quality of motor oil has increased tremendously. HD diesel OEM's are recommending 40,000 to 80,000 mile oil changes, even longer with oil sampling done by the OEM. The day of the 3,000 mile oil change is long gone if you use quality oil and filters. The P and Z in all the diesel oils, with the exception of the new FA oils, is as much, or way more than we used to get 40 years ago. No need for the fancy, smancy boutique oils that are promoted today. Modern snake oil salesmen trying to make a buck
      Dick Whittington

      Comment

      • Duke W.
        Beyond Control Poster
        • January 1, 1993
        • 15610

        #33
        Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

        Actually, Dick, the P and Zn concentrations reached about 1200/1300 ppm back in the seventies for both S and C-category and dual category rated major brand oils, and may have been slightly higher in some cases. The current C-category P limit is 1200 - about the same as was typical in the seventies.

        The current SN P limitation is 800, which is about the same as back in the late forties/early fifties time frame when ZDDP was first added to provide valve train protection for the new generation of high-revving OHV V-8 engines that had higher valve spring loads than low revving L-head designs and Chevrolet's low-revving OHV I-6.

        There is no limitation on Zn, but due to the composition of the ZDDP molecule, the Zn concentration will always be a little higher than P.

        Modern base oils also have considerably more oxidation resistance than decades ago in addition to more detergents/dispersants, which is a major reason why change intervals for both light and HD vehicles have been extended over the years while virtually eliminated sludging, which was a big problem with both cars/trucks and aircraft engines prior to the fifties.

        There have been isolated cases of excess sludging on some engine families in the recent past, but these can usually be traced to inadequate PCV designs or vehicles used extensively for very short trip driving.

        Duke

        Comment

        • Chris G.
          Frequent User
          • October 22, 2006
          • 94

          #34
          Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

          Not to threadjack, but would ZDDP help in later model LT1 engines? I know its not flat tappet (LT), I run Mobil One EXTENDED life 15k which has the higher content of ZDDP, I run it in both my LT1 and LT5.
          Thanks

          Comment

          • Jeff P.
            Very Frequent User
            • July 31, 1989
            • 797

            #35
            Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

            John, I just had an L79 350 HP engine rebuilt. When I asked the builder,he said use only Shel Rotella 15-40. I use Brad Penn 10-30 on a survivor same engine. Good luck. Jeff
            Attached Files
            68 L79 Convertible: Triple Black: Work In Progress, Body off. Now on!
            2014 Arctic White Z51 Vert. (Wifes)

            Comment

            • Duke W.
              Beyond Control Poster
              • January 1, 1993
              • 15610

              #36
              Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

              Ask him why you shouldn't use any other 15W-40 CJ-4. Does he know what CJ-4 means and where it comes from? Does he know what API means?

              I would guess you haven't read my oil article, and suggest you do. Send the pdf to your "builder", too.

              Duke

              Comment

              • Jeff P.
                Very Frequent User
                • July 31, 1989
                • 797

                #37
                68 L79 Convertible: Triple Black: Work In Progress, Body off. Now on!
                2014 Arctic White Z51 Vert. (Wifes)

                Comment

                • Troy P.
                  Extremely Frequent Poster
                  • February 1, 1989
                  • 1279

                  #38
                  Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

                  Duke, great info on the CJ-4 or CI-4 as the choice for my '55 V-8 (with no oil filter).

                  Now my question is what weight? The manuals of the day say 30W. I'm guessing that is old technology and a multi weight might be what you recommend these days. Is 10-30W a good choice? I use that now in my 360 HP '63.

                  I live in the Utah desert. Mild winters but it does get in the 20's, but unlikely to be driven that time of year. Can be 110 in the summer, as in NCRS Nationals in Las Vegas this July.

                  Comment

                  • Duke W.
                    Beyond Control Poster
                    • January 1, 1993
                    • 15610

                    #39
                    Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

                    I'm not sure if multi-vis oils were commonly available in 1955, and maybe the manufacturers hadn't fully accepted them yet. Back in the early days the VI improvers rapidly oxidized, so a 10W-30 became a 10W-20 after a few thousand miles. Viscosity range stability is vastly better, nowadays.

                    As I stated in the article, the commonly available 15W-40 viscosity range is okay for CONSISTENT cold starts down to about 15-20F and the SAE viscosity 40 range at 212F provides better high temperature protection due to greater film strength at that temp than 30.

                    Also, you should be aware that CK-4 has replaced CJ-4, and it's fully backward compatible with previous C-categories, so it's perfectly okay to use, and I recommend 15W-40 CK-4 for both of your vintage Corvettes.

                    Duke

                    Comment

                    • Dick W.
                      Former NCRS Director Region IV
                      • June 30, 1985
                      • 10483

                      #40
                      Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

                      Originally posted by Duke Williams (22045)
                      I'm not sure if multi-vis oils were commonly available in 1955, and maybe the manufacturers hadn't fully accepted them yet. Back in the early days the VI improvers rapidly oxidized, so a 10W-30 became a 10W-20 after a few thousand miles. Viscosity range stability is vastly better, nowadays.

                      As I stated in the article, the commonly available 15W-40 viscosity range is okay for CONSISTENT cold starts down to about 15-20F and the SAE viscosity 40 range at 212F provides better high temperature protection due to greater film strength at that temp than 30.

                      Also, you should be aware that CK-4 has replaced CJ-4, and it's fully backward compatible with previous C-categories, so it's perfectly okay to use, and I recommend 15W-40 CK-4 for both of your vintage Corvettes.

                      Duke
                      It is backwards compatible all the way back to the MIL spec oils (1960's or earlier) with the exception of the two stroke Detroit Diesels.
                      Dick Whittington

                      Comment

                      • Troy P.
                        Extremely Frequent Poster
                        • February 1, 1989
                        • 1279

                        #41
                        Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

                        I think back in the day they did not have multi-weight oils. So a straight 30W, with possibly a seasonal change, was called for in the owner's manuals. With no filters those were the days of 2000 mile oil changes and lube jobs, that probably hardly ever got done.

                        I did see the 15-40 recommendation in your previous post but I thought that was for newer cars. Thanks for the clarification.

                        Will the 15W degrade to 10W some day? I'm used to buying all the way down to 5W. My Bentley takes 5-40W for example. So the higher 15W seems out of place to me. But I trust your judgment.

                        Just bought the Walmart brand CJ-4. They did not have CK-4 in that inexpensive brand but it was on the shelf in other brands.

                        One oddity I noticed if you bought the 2 gallon jugs they were well more expensive than buying two 1 gallon jugs. This was true for the Walmart brand as well as others they had in stock. You would think buying in volume would be less expensive. It pays to pay attention.

                        Comment

                        • Duke W.
                          Beyond Control Poster
                          • January 1, 1993
                          • 15610

                          #42
                          Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

                          Originally posted by Troy Pyles (14528)

                          I did see the 15-40 recommendation in your previous post but I thought that was for newer cars. Thanks for the clarification.

                          Will the 15W degrade to 10W some day? I'm used to buying all the way down to 5W. My Bentley takes 5-40W for example. So the higher 15W seems out of place to me. But I trust your judgment.

                          Just bought the Walmart brand CJ-4. They did not have CK-4 in that inexpensive brand but it was on the shelf in other brands.

                          .
                          Most modern cars recommend something from a 5W-20 to a 5W-30. These are the so-called "energy conserving" S-category oils with the starburst on the package, and they are not the best choice for vintage engines. As I said in the oil article. the lubrication requirements for modern engines are different that vintage, primarily because modern engines don't have sliding surfaces in the valve train anymore.

                          The recommended Mobil 1 5W-30 is an excellent oil for modern Corvettes with their "roller everything" valve train, but I would not recommend it for a vintage engine with sliding surface valve train components because it doesn't have as much anti-wear additives as C-category.

                          If you run long enough a 15W-40 it may degrade to a 15W-30. As I said in the article the ...W rating should be based on the lowest CONSISTENT cold start that the engine will see.

                          Do you have an owner's manual for the '55? What does it say about oil viscosity selection?

                          Duke

                          Comment

                          • Duke W.
                            Beyond Control Poster
                            • January 1, 1993
                            • 15610

                            #43
                            Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

                            Originally posted by Dick Whittington (8804)
                            It is backwards compatible all the way back to the MIL spec oils (1960's or earlier) with the exception of the two stroke Detroit Diesels.
                            Yes, the old 2-stroke Detroits have a unique spec, but I don't know what the difference in formulation is compared to 4-stroke C-category. Do you?

                            Also, I've always wondered about the oil spec used in the big EMD locomotive 2-strokes. Do you know? Is it the same as for the 2-stroke automotive diesels? My understanding railroad maintenance practice is that the oil is never changed until major overhaul, which is usually after about 15 years and a million or two miles, and they carry 200-300 gallons.

                            I assume they must have a real good filtration system.

                            Duke

                            Comment

                            • Troy P.
                              Extremely Frequent Poster
                              • February 1, 1989
                              • 1279

                              #44
                              Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

                              See page 27 of the owners manual. Same manual used 53-55. Manual did not change when the V-8 was introduced.


                              Comment

                              • Dick W.
                                Former NCRS Director Region IV
                                • June 30, 1985
                                • 10483

                                #45
                                Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

                                Originally posted by Duke Williams (22045)
                                Yes, the old 2-stroke Detroits have a unique spec, but I don't know what the difference in formulation is compared to 4-stroke C-category. Do you?

                                Also, I've always wondered about the oil spec used in the big EMD locomotive 2-strokes. Do you know? Is it the same as for the 2-stroke automotive diesels? My understanding railroad maintenance practice is that the oil is never changed until major overhaul, which is usually after about 15 years and a million or two miles, and they carry 200-300 gallons.

                                I assume they must have a real good filtration system.

                                Duke
                                Detroit had their own specs. Using the API designation for what it CK now would cause oil to pour through the engine. I think it was the ash that caused it. My memory is very foggy on that as the last 2 cycle Detroits I had anything to do with were late '70's vintage and the 92 series
                                Dick Whittington

                                Comment

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