Sharing common errors of restored cars

[Gene M.]

[Mark E.]

Re: Sharing common errrors of restored cars

After the recent regional meet at Florida I wanted to share some common restoration errors seen on show field. I only mention these because a number of cars had the same conditions.

The 5/8 heater hose with GM ink stamping is a GM sourced hose. It should not have rib grooves indicating another supplier. See the different number of ribs denotes a particular vendor suppling the hose. The ink stamping is the supplier having ribs also is a red flag it is bogus reproduction.

The Corbin clamps s/b color code to indicate size 5/8” or 3/4”. The dye coloring has varied over the years. Also the wings on the Corbin clamps on the originals are about 2/3 the length of the reproductions. Lay one’s index finger between wings and the tops s/b about level with top of finger.

Alternator die cast finishes do not appear as “unaltered”. Die casting DOES NOT have a gritty looking finish. I don’t know who is restoring them as seen but it is not right. The stamping on originals is heavy in the center and light on the ends due to the original rotational process. Restamped alternators exhibiting even depth stamping are obvious fraud and easy to pick out if one knows what to look for. Also the rear needle bearing is only a Torrington as GM produced them. An INA bearing is wrong supplier as the company did not produce needle bearings in USA sizes until the 70’s.

Gene,

Please clarify-

- Are you saying all GM stamped heater hoses are smooth? And no GM stamping if there is ribbing?

- Alternator case finish- By gritty looking, do you mean the rough finish like it has been bead blasted or tumbled?

- Alternator stamping- The PN and date code stamping should be deeper for the center characters, and shallower for the characters at the beginning and end? For example, with 1100884, the 008 is stamped deeper than the 11 or 84?

[Daniel S.]

Re: Sharing common errrors of restored cars

Hi Gene, thanks for taking the time to share these insights. My brother and I appreciated your time and guidance with our survivor '67 427/390 convertible @ the NCRS Regional in Altoona 2017.

Regards,
Dan

[Gene M.]

Re: Sharing common errrors of restored cars

gene,

please clarify-

- are you saying all gm stamped heater hoses are smooth?............ Yes

and no gm stamping if there is ribbing? Correct

- alternator case finish- by gritty looking, do you mean the rough finish like it has been bead blasted or tumbled? ...........Yes

- alternator stamping- the pn and date code stamping should be deeper for the center characters, and shallower for the characters at the beginning and end? ..............Yes

for example, with 1100884, the 008 is stamped deeper than the 11 or ..............the start of the line and end of the line are lighter than the center.

see ATER ...............

[Michael J.]

Re: Sharing common errrors of restored cars

Should that then be a full deduction since the configuration is NTFP?

[Brian M.]

Re: Sharing common errrors of restored cars

This info in from my respected physician.
Re ribs & GM logo on heater hose
My experience with GM heater hose has a different conclusion than yours. Ribs is actually a generic NCRS moniker. The Rubber Manufacturers Association identifies different specific suppliers using the terms pyramids & plateaus – as these are two different patterns that are used in identification. Also some codes are recessed & others are raised above the surface. Different plants owned by the same parent company have different codes. So a plant in Sledge, Mississippi has a different code than one in Dayton, Ohio – even though both have the same parent ownership – say Dayco.
My 1970’s RMA ID book does not list a code for GM extruded products. It lists a code for the Inland Division of GM, however those code are two or three alphabetic codes for molded products – not extruded products. Example of alphabetic codes: AG, AU, AF, DG, etc.
The 1950s, 1960s & early 1970’s GM blueprints for extruded hoses such as 5/8” & 3/4” heater hose list 8 different approved suppliers, each with a different code. There is no code listing for a GM code on these blueprints – however they all bear the admonition that the GM trademark should appear on these hose from these 8 approved suppliers with an actual size defined for the logo on the blueprint. These blueprints were revised over the years as different lengths of hose were continually added. If you take a GM part number from a GM Corvette assembly manual & look at these blueprints, they list the that specific length for that part number along with the ID, OD, tolerances & SAE spec for the composition.
Interesting that every GM radiator hose bears a GM logo as well as the 2 letter code for the actual supplier to GM. As the number of rubber manufacturers increased worldwide, a new ID system was added. The fabric yarns used in these hoses for reinforcement was color coded to ID different suppliers. Not just one color, but several yarn colors in combination would ID a specific plant.
Now this is all irrelevant, as NCRS has their own conclusions. That is one reason why I guarantee nothing for NCRS. It does not matter what is; what matters is what NCRS says they will award or deduct for appropriate. And as you know, nothing is static with regard to judging parameters over time.
Same with PB hoses with several different codes that ID the length – yet I know of virtually all aftermarket suppliers only vend one code & one size to fit all. You cut those to the length you need. Smog hoses were produced with & without ribs, with & without yarn (cloth inserted & double extruded). Yet all are printed with a GM logo, a GM part number, length codes as well as RMA codes.
Just because a GM logo appears on a part, absolutely does not indicate that GM actually manufactured that part.
G. Coenen
PS Decades ago Corbin was sold to a company conveniently located in Bridgeport, CT. Using your index finger measurement, theses have the same size wings. They are no longer in business. After the patent expired or under license of the parent, others began clamp production and anything could have varied slightly. I have only noticed that the OD of the spring steel wire itself was thinner on some non-Corbin manufactured clamps. The Yellow & Orange dyes do vary somewhat if one examines with a Pantone color chart. My personal view is that, this is no different that the 12 or 15 or whatever the number is with regard to the various shades of Black that were recognized in aftermarket books on Corvettes.
Personally, I’ve has my fill of the correctness & incorrectness battles.

[Joe R.]

Re: Sharing common errrors of restored cars

You mean to tell me that GM out sourced parts to several vendors for the same part trying to keep their supply coming in so they didn't have to shut the line down at St. Louis for a clamp or a hose and loose thousands a minute! That sounds like they were producers thinking of their investors and not thinking about producing an automobile that was exactly the same every time one rolled off the production line.
It also tells me that your Physician supplies the most correct parts for C-2's and C-3's in the world. Wish there were more suppliers like your physician.
Thanks for setting us straight!

JR

[Frank D.]

Re: Sharing common errrors of restored cars

How about the white stripe on vacuum advance rubber lines ?
I hear different stories on that topic..

[John D.]

Re: Sharing common errrors of restored cars

How about the white stripe on vacuum advance rubber lines ?
I hear different stories on that topic..

Frank, For sure the 63 to 65 fuel injection vacuum advance rubber hose does NOT have a stripe on it.
When did the white stripe come out Frank. Was it '68?

Alternators. My 63 got a hit on the alternator because the "stator"-area between the two aluminum halves was/is carmel color and should be black.
Thanks, John

[Edward B.]

Re: Sharing common errrors of restored cars

Amen. Amen.

[Gene M.]

Re: Sharing common errrors of restored cars

Most reliable sources is untouched original cars. As for ink stamped hose on original untouched cars the non ribbed non grooved hose only exhibits GM marking. Understand these hoses are not unique to corvettes. Supplied in rolls they service all of GM. As for the ribs or grooves indicating supplier and source only. Unless one’s can produce known examples inked stamped w/ ribs or grooves the cars tell the story.

As for striped on vacuum hoses or not both could be correct for points in time. Something to further research.

Please do not think of correctness as battles if not for the sharing of information there would only be blank pages. You do have the option to bow out.

John stator’s on cars prior to 67 do exhibit black coloration, while later are more prone to be Carmel color. Realize over laps are more than possible.

An original alternator that shows no sign of rebuilding or restamping is a good reference.

[Joe R.]

Re: Sharing common errrors of restored cars

Frank, For sure the 63 to 65 fuel injection vacuum advance rubber hose does NOT have a stripe on it.
When did the white stripe come out Frank. Was it '68?

Alternators. My 63 got a hit on the alternator because the "stator"-area between the two aluminum halves was/is carmel color and should be black.
Thanks, John

John,

You complaining cause you got a hit because of the wrong color of the stator! It should have been black!
You could have painted the LWC red and got a hit on the paint. But you didn't????

JR

[Frank D.]

Re: Sharing common errrors of restored cars

Frank, For sure the 63 to 65 fuel injection vacuum advance rubber hose does NOT have a stripe on it.
When did the white stripe come out Frank. Was it '68?

Alternators. My 63 got a hit on the alternator because the "stator"-area between the two aluminum halves was/is carmel color and should be black.
Thanks, John

Not sure when the white stripe came out but a heck of a lot of vendors sell it as correct for C2s across the board..
My original '628' alternator has black stator wafers...

[Frank D.]

Re: Sharing common errrors of restored cars

Frank, For sure the 63 to 65 fuel injection vacuum advance rubber hose does NOT have a stripe on it.
When did the white stripe come out Frank. Was it '68?

Alternators. My 63 got a hit on the alternator because the "stator"-area between the two aluminum halves was/is carmel color and should be black.
Thanks, John

I've heard different rationales for why vendors have or don't have the stripe....this is an interesting one off the Doc Rebuild site (I got a chuckle out of portions of it):

http://shop.docrebuild.com/whitestripevacuumadvancehose.aspx

[Brian M.]

Re: Sharing common errrors of restored cars

You gotta love his research.