My second pump gas damage mistake

[Michael J.]

Re: My second pump gas damage mistake

Our ethanol free 91 octane is $2.99/gallon, and the VP Racing Fuels 101 octane, at the pump is $7.99/gallon, and they have 2 pumps available at this station.

[Steven B.]

Re: My second pump gas damage mistake

According to Pure-Gas.Org, Washington has 295 stations offering ethanol free gas, followed by Oregon with 261 stations located all over each state. California lists only 24. The station I visit in Washington, is more along the price range that Michael mentioned, maybe a bit less, except it is 92 octane. 87 octane ethanol free is available all over Washington, even in some obscure places. My 327 is only 300 hp, and I don't know that it would make much difference running ethanol blended fuel (I have in the past), but the ethanol free station is closest to me. They also carry the 87 octane, which I may try this summer.


Steve

[Michael J.]

Re: My second pump gas damage mistake

That's great, and I understand in Oregon, you can actually pump your own gas now..........

[Steven B.]

Re: My second pump gas damage mistake

The station I go to in Washington is a cardlock, which allows me access 24/7, and throughout their network anywhere in the US. I also get my diesel there which is also why I got an account. We lived in Oregon for over 20 years and I will have to admit it was nice not having to get out in the weather to pump fuel. However, since I also have a diesel truck and the way the law was written in Oregon, you could pump your own diesel (you didn't have to) and not get in trouble. It would save a little time not having to wait for an attendant. From what I understand, the new Oregon pump law applies to counties with lower populations (under 40,000), that are less likely to be able to have attendants at all hours.

Steve

[Perry M.]

Re: My second pump gas damage mistake

I am curious as to where this cardlock station is in Washington. Is it in the Seattle area?

[Steven B.]

Re: My second pump gas damage mistake

The station I go to is a part of the CFN network. It's actually in Gig Harbor. I got the card primarily for the diesel but they also have non-ethanol gas both 87 and 92 octane. The card will allow me to pump fuel anywhere in their network as well as fuel companies and their locations that accept the CFN card, such as Texaco, Cenex, Chevron, Pilot, Flying J, etc. If you want to see just locations that sell straight gasoline, go to pure-gas.org for state listings. Some of the CFN locations will be listed on that site. My local station issued the card based on fuel purchases. They would like to have a certain level of purchases per month. There are stations around Seattle. If you are interested, Google CFN and they will have information on how to obtain a card. It will probably be through a CFN member.

Steve

[Perry M.]

Re: My second pump gas damage mistake

Thank you. I am aware of puregas.com and there are two sources of ethanol free gas here on Whidbey Island. I was hoping that all the card lock stations had ethanol free gas but apparently not.

[Joe L.]

Re: My second pump gas damage mistake

According to Pure-Gas.Org, Washington has 295 stations offering ethanol free gas, followed by Oregon with 261 stations located all over each state. California lists only 24. The station I visit in Washington, is more along the price range that Michael mentioned, maybe a bit less, except it is 92 octane. 87 octane ethanol free is available all over Washington, even in some obscure places. My 327 is only 300 hp, and I don't know that it would make much difference running ethanol blended fuel (I have in the past), but the ethanol free station is closest to me. They also carry the 87 octane, which I may try this summer.


Steve

Steve-----

When I referred to the unavailability of ethanol-free gasoline, I mistakenly over-generalized when I used the term "west coast". More accurately, ethanol-free gas is extremely difficult to find in California.

[Steven B.]

Re: My second pump gas damage mistake

Joe,

In looking at Pure-Gas.Org, California only lists 24 stations that sell ethanol free gasoline. That is a very small number compared to most any other state. That definitely would make it extremely difficult to obtain. Interestingly enough, the lowest octane rating for any stations listed in California offering non-ethanol gas is 87 at, wait for it, one station. All the rest are listed at a minimum of 91 and at Socal Nitrous & Race Fuels, and Benton Performance, a high of 116. The rest are in the vicinity of between 91 - 110. Looking at the average of the 24 stations, I would put the octane rating above what is available in most other states. But I bet that being in California, it's on the expensive side. I would guess that most in California are using high octane 10% ethanol. Is that a realistic guess?

Steve

[Duke W.]

Re: My second pump gas damage mistake

When comparing octane ratings you have to be careful... understand what rating system is being used, RON, MON, PON, or Aviation Method, and make sure all are the same or do the necessary conversions to make sure it's an apples to apples comparison. Most vintage Corvette "high compression" engines appear to operate detonation free on 91 PON E10, which is the highest commonly available octane in California, however, many have been rebuilt with lower compression. Simply substituting a thick composition gasket for the OE .018" steel shim gasket on small blocks will knock down the CR close to half a point, and the majority left Flint with lower than the advertised CR.

I know of one original low miles L-71 that needs a blend of higher octane "race gas" or avgas, and some 283s operate okay on 87 PON. Other than the 283/283, 290, 275, and 315 HP FI engines, 283s have an advertised CR of 9.5:1, but were probably closer to 9:1 when they left Flint, and a thick head gasket drops it as low as the mid-eights.

The octane requirement increases with increasing bore, so big blocks tend to have a greater octane appetite than small blocks. The practical limit on spark ignition engine bore size, due to detonation considerations, is about six inches, but I think there was at least one WW II aircraft engines (English as I recall) that was 6.25" bore.

Duke

[Joe L.]

Re: My second pump gas damage mistake

Joe,

In looking at Pure-Gas.Org, California only lists 24 stations that sell ethanol free gasoline. That is a very small number compared to most any other state. That definitely would make it extremely difficult to obtain. Interestingly enough, the lowest octane rating for any stations listed in California offering non-ethanol gas is 87 at, wait for it, one station. All the rest are listed at a minimum of 91 and at Socal Nitrous & Race Fuels, and Benton Performance, a high of 116. The rest are in the vicinity of between 91 - 110. Looking at the average of the 24 stations, I would put the octane rating above what is available in most other states. But I bet that being in California, it's on the expensive side. I would guess that most in California are using high octane 10% ethanol. Is that a realistic guess?

Steve

Steve-----

If you mean do most of the California stations offering higher than 91 octane have such fuel only with 10% ethanol, I believe the answer is yes. In fact, I wonder where those few stations offering ethanol-free gasoline obtain that product. With such a small market I don't understand why any refinery would produce it.

Also, stations offering gasoline with higher than 91 octane charge a huge premium for those products.

[Michael J.]

Re: My second pump gas damage mistake

Steve-----

In fact, I wonder where those few stations offering ethanol-free gasoline obtain that product. With such a small market I don't understand why any refinery would produce it.

.

Things may have changed since I retired from Conoco (after 35 years working there), or is different in Cali, but the local jobbers used to mix the ethanol in at their locations, before trucking it out to the stations. The jobbers normally have a pipeline or other direct feed from the refinery to their storage tanks. The refineries usually produce only the gasoline, not the ethanol, which is usually supplied from a separate source. That is where I buy the ethanol free gas I get, at the jobber's location, pumps that comes from the tanks where the pipeline ends, before the ethanol is mixed into it.

[Joe L.]

Re: My second pump gas damage mistake

Things may have changed since I retired from Conoco (after 35 years working there), or is different in Cali, but the local jobbers used to mix the ethanol in at their locations, before trucking it out to the stations. The jobbers normally have a pipeline or other direct feed from the refinery to their storage tanks. The refineries usually produce only the gasoline, not the ethanol, which is usually supplied from a separate source. That is where I buy the ethanol free gas I get, at the jobber's location, pumps that comes from the tanks where the pipeline ends, before the ethanol is mixed into it.

Michael------


I don't think that process has changed although I believe that, at least around here, the vast majority of the ethanol-laden rail tank cars go to the refineries. So, I assume that the blending goes on there, probably just prior to the gasoline being trucked out to service stations. However, I've always assumed that the gasoline base stocks were manufactured in such a way that the combined octane rating of the base stock + ethanol yielded the various common pump octane ratings (i.e. 87, 89, and 91). Since ethanol addition raises the octane, I assumed that the base stocks, alone, actually had a lower octane rating than the finished product. If so, I would not think the base stock, alone, would be suitable for most engines.

[Michael J.]

Re: My second pump gas damage mistake

In large distribution center areas near refineries, the gasoline is blended with ethanol in or near the refineries. Some refiners make ethanol, some don't. The nearest refinery to my place is 300 miles, so the gas comes in via a pipeline and is blended with ethanol (which comes in by truck) at the jobber, who also adds the package of proprietary additives for that brand. The non-ethanol pumps are labeled 90 octane, if you buy 10% ethanol fuel there it is 91 octane, so there is a slight increase. Our refineries all produced distinct and different low, mid, and high octane gas. You also have to be careful, as when ethanol laced fuels absorb water, the octane is lowered by as much as 3 points in a 10% ethanol blend, and much more in E85 type fuel.

[Duke W.]

Re: My second pump gas damage mistake

Michael------


I don't think that process has changed although I believe that, at least around here, the vast majority of the ethanol-laden rail tank cars go to the refineries. So, I assume that the blending goes on there, probably just prior to the gasoline being trucked out to service stations. However, I've always assumed that the gasoline base stocks were manufactured in such a way that the combined octane rating of the base stock + ethanol yielded the various common pump octane ratings (i.e. 87, 89, and 91). Since ethanol addition raises the octane, I assumed that the base stocks, alone, actually had a lower octane rating than the finished product. If so, I would not think the base stock, alone, would be suitable for most engines.

Pretty close to the system, but there's more. Gasoline products produced by refineries are known as "BOB" - blends for oxygenate blending, and there are several types depending on where you live. California's unique blend of "reformulated" gasoline is known as CARBOB - California reformulated blend for oxygen blending.

All these BOBs are straight gasoline that can be shipped in pipelines to distributors. Ethanol is added later because any ethanol in the pipeline blend will absorb water, and all pipelines have water contamination. The ethanol is shipped to the distributor in rail or road tank cars and added to the gasoline ("splashed" is the industry term) into the tank truck that delivers the product to your local gas station. Specific additives are also added for various brands, but that's the only difference between Shell, Chevron, and Arco. If a refinery is located in a large metropolitan area the blending in of ethanol/additives may be done at the refinery for local delivery, but most gasoline is blended at distributors remote from the refinery.

Which brand has the best additive package? That's a debate with no answer, but the best advice I've seen from a petroleum engineer is to switch brands frequently, but I buy on price, which usually means Arco, and they are now a "top tier" brand as are Shell, Chevron, and most of the major brands.

Since ethanol is an octane enhancer, the BOBs have slightly lower octane than the final E10 product by about 1-2 points. That's why non-ethanol gasoline, if you can find it, usually has a slightly lower octane than the highest octane E10 in your area.

If you want to take a deeper dive, look at the following web page, especially the map that shows all the different BOBs and other unique requirements such as Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) for various parts of the country.

https://www.wearethepractitioners.com/index.php/topic-categories/art-analysis/petroleum-supply-chain/gasoline-bobs-cbob-and-rbob-and-carbob

Do all these different blends and requirements actually improve air quality? That's similar to the "what's the best additive package debate" and I'm highly suspicious that we are getting very little return for the cost of having so many blends and other requirements.

Duke