1963 - 1967 RPO ECLs - How did we learn their definitions?

[Richard M.]

As the title asks, does anyone here know where the information came from regarding the 1963-1967 ECLs*? In particular for the John Amgwert Spec Guide, Noland Adams Volume 2 Book and the Al Grenning & Roy Sinor Trim Tag book? Where did they get all of their data? Was this public information at some time or was it acquired from GM individually when Noland Al & Roy wrote their books?

I'm asking because I'd like to know how to find ECLs for the other Chevrolet Models, Chevelle, Camaro, Corvair, etc. If John, Noland, Al & Roy got this information for Corvette, it must be available somewhere for the rest of the Chevrolet vehicles.

I am now on a new mission.

Rich
* for those not in the know... -> Exception Control Letter(s)

[Keith B.]

Re: 1963 - 1967 RPO ECLs - How did we learn their definitions?

I am here so I get tagged when you get a response.

[Richard M.]

Re: 1963 - 1967 RPO ECLs - How did we learn their definitions?

Got a reply email last night from one of the guys but unfortunately unable to assist.

I'm going to check at GM Heritage but I think we tried that before with no luck.

Rich

[Keith B.]

Re: 1963 - 1967 RPO ECLs - How did we learn their definitions?

bump for some answers hopefully

[Richard M.]

Re: 1963 - 1967 RPO ECLs - How did we learn their definitions?

Well I knew it was a longshot question here and I didn't really expect much activity in the response category, but....

I did have some very informative communication with Al and we surmised that I'm pretty much on my own. Trying to get ECL definition information for the other Chevrolet models is going to be a long and arduous task. Al knows of no means of discovering where this may be located. So I'll be putting this mission on the back burner for now as I have too many others I need to prioritize.

Maybe by posting something on the other forums could help. Keith, If you're a member of the Chevelle and/or Camaro, etc forums maybe you could post some ECL questions there, if you already haven't.

If we get some answers via other arenas, who knows, it may even lead to and help discover some of the Corvette pre-1963 'single' letter ECL information which is one of my many "other" missions too. For me to find this would be like hitting the lottery, well maybe not the $750M Megamillions going on right now! Hmmm, I going to go out and buy one ticket for that 1 in 292 million-to-one chance. If I win that it might be a indicator to me I might find this ECL stuff!

For example, here is one page from "the book" on the '69 Chevelle. There are 17 pages, 7 index pages and 10 pages of RPOs. Note the ECLs and their associated usage. Some define which engine option is used associated with the ECL. But each one has its own unique application of likely trim and exceptions. Likely if power windows, or this or that, etc. There are a enormous amount of combinations of ECLs. Like a needle in a haystack to find. Somewhere it's out there.....I just know it is, but where?

Probably in somebody's basement or attic, or ?.

Rich

69Chevelle_RPO_eg.jpg

[Keith B.]

Re: 1963 - 1967 RPO ECLs - How did we learn their definitions?

Richard I did reach out to two people in the Chevelle world that might know. One wrote back to me and did not know where to start as his massive build sheet collection offers no help. And the other I waiting on to here back.

[Cecil L.]

Re: 1963 - 1967 RPO ECLs - How did we learn their definitions?

Richard,
My other passion is the 348/409 engine history. I have been researching this since 2005 and my interest goes way back to 1958 since I had a 58 DelRay 2 door with 280 hp 348 with 3/2's my senior year in HS. I have been able to decode the production IBM punch cards manually but still have not found the key to the ECL's but I have a few ideas. Different codes were used on different forms but sometimes they reveal cross connecting codes/info. Dealer order forms, RPO/FOA codes, IBM punch cards and probably many other forms must relate at some point.
Here's an example from the 1960 Passenger Car AMA Specs from the GM Heritage Center. It's the only year I've found listing the engine ECL Codes for the Pass 2 letter and Corvette single letter codes.
I believe that it has to do with the letter following the RPO number on the build sheet/order copy/window sticker.
Additionally, I believe the Parts List number or letter associated with the engine assembly number from the AIM might be another key listing all the neccessary parts for that particular configuration.
Obviously, an engine assembly 3764893 for a 60 Corvette 230hp with RPO 313 powerglide should show ECL 313N on order/production documents.
Since the Corvette only had one model body to deal with unlike the full size multi model body styles I think that explains the single letter code on the Corvette.

Cecil




60 Engine RPO Exception Codes.jpg

[Richard M.]

Re: 1963 - 1967 RPO ECLs - How did we learn their definitions?

Cecil, I recall you and I, and many others, conversed HERE when I was searching for pre-1963 Single Letter ECL information, along with that rare and obscurely defined RPO 565. Glad you joined in here too.

Thanks for this information. Interesting research method using the AMA specs. I recall looking at some of them back then too, but came up blank.

I just did something that may help in your own research mission. I just scanned all of the RPO Data for the 1958, 1959, and 1960 Passenger Cars from the Book along with 1958-1962 Engine RPO Data that I already had scanned for you. The Pass car RPO pages also have some ECL definitions for some options, along with some hand written notes by someone there showing ECL definitions.

It may not have all of the answers but it may help. At least it's a fun read. Send me a email via my Profile with your e-addr and I'll send them over.(too big to upload)

Below are a few '58 pages from pdf screen snapshots.

Rich

[David B.]

Re: 1963 - 1967 RPO ECLs - How did we learn their definitions?

Those handwritten notations are mine!

[Loren L.]

Re: 1963 - 1967 RPO ECLs - How did we learn their definitions?

And the detective in you, David, now knows where Richard borrowed the copy of the report.......

[Richard M.]

Re: 1963 - 1967 RPO ECLs - How did we learn their definitions?

Those handwritten notations are mine!

David, Those notes are great and will be very helpful to many of us, thanks for the additional information you've shared.

So it appears that when you sold the book, before you sent it off, you made a copy for yourself? The original book is here and hasn't left since John bought it from you, and he has recently told me to feel free to distribute any of the RPO data to the community as needed. It's an effort but I'm happy to help anyone that asks me for it. There are also several fellow members working on simplifying the data format, reducing of size, and making portions searchable using the OCR facility.(Optical Character Reader)

If we had more server space I'd scan the whole book and make it easier to distribute. My email server is getting overloaded lately.

And the detective in you, David, now knows where Richard borrowed the copy of the report.......

Loren, actually I borrowed the original. I guess David has the copy now, or found one of the other 48 originals?

Either way, good info to now go around.

Rich

[David B.]

Re: 1963 - 1967 RPO ECLs - How did we learn their definitions?

Have been sharing this data for years, especially to other groups, Chevelle, Camaro, full size etc.. Corvette crowd generally only believes the BB, Spec Guide as being infallible. Sorta like "you can lead a horse to water but ----etc.". Note: Interpretation of some of the data requires other internal GM documentation.

[Richard M.]

Re: 1963 - 1967 RPO ECLs - How did we learn their definitions?

Good.

Yes errors abound elswhere, and this book is the bible as far as I can see, albeit a few hiccups. I found a interesting one in it in the 1958 Exterior color section. They show Ivory/Yellow as a combination. However it was obviously a typo. Should have read Ivory/Silver.

Oh yes, I certainly know the RPO data has the need for "more" data from BOMs etc to make sense of it all.

Cecil found some interesting info from the RPO section I got him re the 1958 Pass cars. He was able to solve a long standing question regarding transmission usage.

Rich

[James G.]

Re: 1963 - 1967 RPO ECLs - How did we learn their definitions?

Have you talked to Al Colvin, author of ''CHEVY BY THE NUMBERS''

How about Christo Datini at the HERITAGE CENTER?

I have more

[Cecil L.]

Re: 1963 - 1967 RPO ECLs - How did we learn their definitions?

I think what we may be looking for is something like a matrix chart for each RPO/FOA similar to this 1960 Pontiac engine code chart.
Cecil



1960 Pontiac Engine Chart.jpg