Overheating SB C2 w/AC when not moving - NCRS Discussion Boards

Overheating SB C2 w/AC when not moving

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  • Richard M.
    Super Moderator
    • August 31, 1988
    • 11302

    #16
    Re: Overheating SB C2 w/AC when not moving

    Duke,

    You bring up a interesting thought I just had regarding galvanic corrosion on C1 aluminum radiators.

    In 1960 SHP applications, a aluminum Top Tank radiator was used. The tank was simply for overflow, not expansion like the C2 design.

    This radiator was directly mounted to the radiator/core support vertical sides using bolts through aluminum side brackets with integral pressed in threaded inserts.

    On a C1, the core support not only bolts at the sides to the fiberglass inner skirts, but also attached directly to the frame via 2 carriage bolts. There is a flat rubber shock insulator that the 2 bolts pass through, but no rubber sleeves to insulate the bolts from touching the frame member it's attached to. It's possible for the bolts to scrape and touch the member. This member is the 3rd Arm frame mounted steering bracket.

    1961 & 1962 used a aluminum radiator similar to the later C2 applications, however the mounting was different. They were still bolted to the verticals of the core support, but the bottom of the support now had a raised filler section to accommodate 2 rubber isolator disks to electrically insulate the radiator from the grounded core support. But not guaranteed to be insulated from ground as the lower bolt connection method stayed the same.

    By design, the 1960 Top Tank radiator was directly connected to ground. I have seen those radiators in horrible condition, but some not as bad.

    I'm thinking the badly corroded ones had those lower bolts touching the frame member sides therefore grounding it. Possibly the ones that lasted was because those bolts didn't touch the frame.

    It appears to me that the engineers discovered this issue on the top tank radiator configuration in 1960, and therefore changed the design for the later 2 years, and beyond with rubber isolators at the bottom. But the sides were still bolted directly to the core support.

    It seems that galvanic corrosion was and is possible on any later C1 with a aluminum radiator.

    Rich
    PS Yes, C2 aluminum radiator core tubes cannot be inspected in a installed system, but if the system is drained you can remove the upper hose and use a borescope to have a look. If the radiator is removed same method at the inlet at the bottom.

    Comment

    • Elliott P.
      Expired
      • February 5, 2018
      • 65

      #17

      Comment

      • Richard M.
        Super Moderator
        • August 31, 1988
        • 11302

        #18
        Re: Overheating SB C2 w/AC when not moving

        Originally posted by Elliott Pflughaupt (64440)
        Rich, please pardon me as I go overthinking again. As I was looking for my parts, I found that there is a fan-clutch elimination kit on the market. With a direct drive fan, that would surely increase cooling of radiator at low speed or idle. It would also be much easier to swap out for NCRS show versus go. It would also rob more power from engine at all speeds and increase fan noise, and it would delay warmup of engine. With the AC I have the 7-blade fan. Could anything be damaged (like fan blowing up) due to excess fan speed without fan-clutch? My speedy racer-boy days are over; it’s strictly boulevardier for me nowadays. Your thoughts on this?

        To answer another question, I have no idea about the actual condition of the inside of radiator. I misspoke earlier; this car was completely restored 20 years ago on east coast and spent most of its time in a collector’s storage with little mileage put on it. The radiator looks brand new with all the proper stickers and stamps and recently received a local top-flight chapter judging. The coolant looks clean and clear.

        Best regards, Elliott
        Elliot, The major drawback of the eliminator is noise. It may also add additional strain on the water pump bearings.

        It's possible the radiator was replaced but condition still unknown unless removed and inspected and flow tested.

        Is it date coded? Iirc on a 65 at the top left stamped into the aluminum, or on the Harrison tag/label. I did 2 body off 65s with a buddy but several years ago.

        Some photos of the top areas may help identify.

        Regardless, I would suggest no other mods until you get the new VAC installed and check if your idle heat dissipates.

        Rich

        Comment

        • Duke W.
          Beyond Control Poster
          • January 1, 1993
          • 15610

          #19
          Re: Overheating SB C2 w/AC when not moving

          Elliot - before you mess with the fan get a properly functioning vacuum advance. Idle speed on a L-79 should be set at 750 with the compressor engaged This will result in about 200 revs higher idle with compressor off.

          Measure idle vacuum at 750 with the compressor engaged and use the Two-Inch Rule to select the VAC that will likely the B26, but maybe the B28. Get a proper and functioning VAC on the engine before you start messing with the fan

          What was the result of the subjective fan test I recommended earlier, and does it have a correct fan. I believe AC equipped cars have a seven rather than five blade fan.

          Richard - From new my SWC's radiator had slight fore an aft movement at the top. By the mid seventies it was showing signs of seepage despite rigorous biennial coolant changes. About that time I got an AIM and realized that the top rubber mounting grommet was not installed at St. Louis allowing the radiator to ground to the chassis via the top bracket and radiator support.

          I am absolutely certain that's the reason why the OE radiator corroded so rapidly despite good maintenance.

          Duke

          Comment

          • Domenic T.
            Expired
            • January 29, 2010
            • 2452

            #20
            Re: Overheating SB C2 w/AC when not moving

            Originally posted by Mark Edmondson (22468)
            Top things I'd check with these symptoms:
            - Ignition timing
            - Seals between radiator and core support, and between hood and core support
            - Radiator. It's amazing how much better a new core or complete radiator cools.
            I agree with Mark as a possibility. What caught my attention was that if you rev the engine it cools better than at idle. The higher RPM pulling more air will overcome air leaks around the radiator at idle.

            Dom

            Comment

            • Mark E.
              Extremely Frequent Poster
              • April 1, 1993
              • 4498

              #21
              Re: Overheating SB C2 w/AC when not moving

              Originally posted by Elliott Pflughaupt (64440)
              Rich, please pardon me as I go overthinking again. As I was looking for my parts, I found that there is a fan-clutch elimination kit on the market. With a direct drive fan, that would surely increase cooling of radiator at low speed or idle. It would also be much easier to swap out for NCRS show versus go. It would also rob more power from engine at all speeds and increase fan noise, and it would delay warmup of engine. With the AC I have the 7-blade fan. Could anything be damaged (like fan blowing up) due to excess fan speed without fan-clutch? My speedy racer-boy days are over; it’s strictly boulevardier for me nowadays. Your thoughts on this?

              To answer another question, I have no idea about the actual condition of the inside of radiator. I misspoke earlier; this car was completely restored 20 years ago on east coast and spent most of its time in a collector’s storage with little mileage put on it. The radiator looks brand new with all the proper stickers and stamps and recently received a local top-flight chapter judging. The coolant looks clean and clear.

              Best regards, Elliott
              It's better to find and fix the problem rather than eliminating the clutch.

              Even you can't peer into the radiator you can still do some basic checks; see prior post.
              Mark Edmondson
              Dallas, Texas
              Texas Chapter

              1970 Coupe, Donnybrooke Green, Light Saddle LS5 M20 A31 C60 G81 N37 N40 UA6 U79
              1993 Coupe, 40th Anniversary, 6-speed, PEG 1, FX3, CD, Bronze Top

              Comment

              • Mark E.
                Extremely Frequent Poster
                • April 1, 1993
                • 4498

                #22
                Re: Overheating SB C2 w/AC when not moving

                Originally posted by Duke Williams (22045)
                Richard - From new my SWC's radiator had slight fore an aft movement at the top. By the mid seventies it was showing signs of seepage despite rigorous biennial coolant changes. About that time I got an AIM and realized that the top rubber mounting grommet was not installed at St. Louis allowing the radiator to ground to the chassis via the top bracket and radiator support.

                I am absolutely certain that's the reason why the OE radiator corroded so rapidly despite good maintenance.

                Duke
                I assume this is an issue when replacing a copper with a new replacement aluminum radiator? I wonder how many know to check if it's insulated?
                Mark Edmondson
                Dallas, Texas
                Texas Chapter

                1970 Coupe, Donnybrooke Green, Light Saddle LS5 M20 A31 C60 G81 N37 N40 UA6 U79
                1993 Coupe, 40th Anniversary, 6-speed, PEG 1, FX3, CD, Bronze Top

                Comment

                • Duke W.
                  Beyond Control Poster
                  • January 1, 1993
                  • 15610

                  #23
                  Re: Overheating SB C2 w/AC when not moving

                  Likely near zero. A new radiator should be mounted with new bottom and top grommets. I don't know if DeWitts includes them with new repro Harrisons, but they along should with explaining why they are important.

                  It's easy to check - just set a multimeter on a high ohm scale and measure between anything on the core (might be a good idea to scrape paint away in a non visible area to get a good connection) and the battery negative post of a known good ground. It should read infinite.

                  Comment

                  • William F.
                    Extremely Frequent Poster
                    • June 9, 2009
                    • 1354

                    #24
                    Re: Overheating SB C2 w/AC when not moving

                    Refresh my memory, please.
                    Where do I get a real B26or B28 vac can? NAPA? What will their part number be?

                    Comment

                    • Leif A.
                      Extremely Frequent Poster
                      • August 31, 1997
                      • 3607

                      #25
                      Re: Overheating SB C2 w/AC when not moving

                      Originally posted by William Ford (50517)
                      Refresh my memory, please.
                      Where do I get a real B26or B28 vac can? NAPA? What will their part number be?
                      Rock Auto...

                      Ignition Parts and More for Your 1967 CHEVROLET CORVETTE at Reliably Low Prices. Fast Online Catalog. DIY-Easy. Your Choice of Quality. Full Manufacturer Warranty.
                      Leif
                      '67 Coupe L79, M21, C60, N14, N40, J50, A31, U69, A01, QB1
                      Top Flight 2017 Lone Star Regional

                      Comment

                      • Jack H.
                        Very Frequent User
                        • April 1, 2000
                        • 477

                        #26
                        Re: Overheating SB C2 w/AC when not moving

                        Originally posted by William Ford (50517)
                        Refresh my memory, please.
                        Where do I get a real B26or B28 vac can? NAPA? What will their part number be?
                        Airtex #4V1053 is a B28
                        Standard #VC181 is a B26

                        Both available from Rock Auto and other sources too. The VC181 is available at Amazon. Not sure how NAPA part numbers correspond, but they may have a cross-reference to those numbers.

                        BTW, just found this in another post by Charles Fowler: I purchased the Napa VC1765 Echlin 12” B26 vacuum can.

                        While we are on this topic, can someone remind me what the differences are in the B26 vs the B28?

                        Comment

                        • Elliott P.
                          Expired
                          • February 5, 2018
                          • 65

                          #27
                          Re: Overheating SB C2 w/AC when not moving

                          Again, thanks so much for all the input. It seems a lot of questions remain on the “correct” vac-adv to use for the particular year and engine application. I am having difficulty tracking down an available equivalent vac-adv to GM PN 1116236, which is specified in the 1965 TIM&JG for the L79 with or without TI (and also for the L76 & L84). The aftermarket parts books usually show a distinction “except high perf.”, which would be limited to the base (250HP) & L75. And the BB is also different.

                          Due to nature of diaphragm design, these different part numbers likely only differ in spring-rate and maximum advance allowed, which was chosen by GM to properly fit the application. So, these differences should be considered important for function. (Of course, that function was established using proper gasoline back in the day; today’s ersatz gasoline certainly may affect what would be best.) I would assume that the spring rate roughly gives you a linear relationship between vacuum level and degrees of advance.

                          The defective, 20+ year old, vac-adv I removed from my car was stamped ‘236 16’, indicating PN 116236 with 16 degrees max advance (again according to TIM&JG). Can anyone help me locate a reliable-sourced vac-adv that is truly equivalent to the original ‘236 16’. For example, the RockAuto parts listings only show a non-high-perf vac-adv available. Based on advice given here, I have given up on finding a properly stamped “reproduction” vac-adv.

                          And again, best regards, Elliott

                          BTW, the comparable low-perf vac-adv (GM PN 111638) indicates a 24 degree max advance, a big difference.

                          Comment

                          • Jack H.
                            Very Frequent User
                            • April 1, 2000
                            • 477

                            #28
                            Re: Overheating SB C2 w/AC when not moving

                            In my opinion, the standard (non-Corvette specialty) parts searches are not very accurate when it comes to higher HP optioned Corvette parts.

                            Post from Duke says (recognized expert):
                            The Standard VC177, not VC181, is a correct replacement for the original 236 16, if you can find one. Replacements, stamped B28, are getting hard to find, but recent reports say you can buy a B28 in the Airtex brand 4V1053.

                            His post was from this thread:
                            https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthre...543#post742543

                            Post from another source says:
                            Alternate Part Numbers:
                            Airtex 4V1053
                            NAPA/Echlin VC-1810
                            Niehoff DR-305
                            Borg-Warner V329
                            BWD V329
                            Standard Motor Products VC-177
                            Standard Motor Products Hygrade VC177
                            AC/Delco part number D1312C
                            GM part number is 88924985
                            Wells DV1810
                            Corvette Central was 272031, now 272033


                            Unfortunately, it looks like Rock Auto is now out of stock on the Airtex 4V1053. Not much luck on the other alternatives that I see either, with the exception of the CorvetteCentral #272033 which says "Low Stock".

                            Comment

                            • Richard M.
                              Super Moderator
                              • August 31, 1988
                              • 11302

                              #29
                              Re: Overheating SB C2 w/AC when not moving

                              Elliot,

                              Today's approach to select a correct VAC unit for your car was defined in post#19.... Duke's.

                              Don't be concerned about the 236 "replacement". You need to do a simple test using a vacuum gauge to select the proper VAC. You need the functionality approach right now to fix your initial problem.

                              Do what Duke said. It's imperative to do this methododically to get exactly the right part. It may turn out to be a 236 equivalent, but maybe not. Your engine internals, piston, cam, carb, etc may be slightly or very different from original spec. You cannot assume anything in this approach.

                              In basic terms, the Two Inch rule is this....

                              Engine at a specific idle with VAC hose plugged.
                              In your case, 750 with AC clutch engaged.
                              Static timing set to spec.
                              Measure vacuum on gauge.
                              Record the result.

                              Select a VAC that is "all in" at least 2" below recorded result. "All in" means fully engaged/pulled to give max advance at idle.

                              Reason: This will ensure that the VAC will be "all in" at idle, yielding a properly advanced timing, apx 25* for cooler running in traffic, etc.

                              Do this before any other decisions for VAC purchase.

                              Rich

                              Comment

                              • William F.
                                Extremely Frequent Poster
                                • June 9, 2009
                                • 1354

                                #30
                                Re: Overheating SB C2 w/AC when not moving

                                Leif,
                                I went to your Rock Auto link but couldn't figure out which PN was a B26 and a B28?
                                help, please and thanks

                                Comment

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