Service Replacement Carb point deduction

[Roy S.]

Question - 1967 435 service replacement carbs. Correct list, correct GM number, no date. How many of the 40 originality points do they lose? 20% for date, 10 % configuration or ? they are not 100 % configured wrong.

[Mark E.]

Re: Service Replacement Carb point deduction

I feel awkward replying to a judging question by a former judging chairman... trick question or nuance I don't see?

I say 20% for date. It seems repetitive and a bit petty to ding configuration (or completeness for that matter) because of absence of a date stamp.

[David H.]

Re: Service Replacement Carb point deduction

I feel awkward replying to a judging question by a former judging chairman... trick question or nuance I don't see?

I say 20% for date. It seems repetitive and a bit petty to ding configuration (or completeness for that matter) because of absence of a date stamp.

Agree, only Date.

Dave

[Roy S.]

Re: Service Replacement Carb point deduction

Guys not a trick question, just trying to help a friend decide which way to go on his car. Has perfect performing service carbs. Also has original carbs that probably will provide less than acceptable performance. Decide which way to go for Frisco. I am way past trick questions just wondered what current thought processes were.

[Jimmy G.]

Re: Service Replacement Carb point deduction

Roy If I am judging the car 20% As long as everything else is up to speed

[Gary J.]

Re: Service Replacement Carb point deduction

So that would be an 8 point loss, how is the rest of the car? A repro tinted windshield is another 8 points gone, starts adding up quick. Need to concentrate on the operations points to minimize the point lost in the other 4 categories.

[Joseph S.]

Re: Service Replacement Carb point deduction

I think you have both a Configuration issue & a date issue. There will be differences between the Service carbs & the originals. I think you will see a 40% deduct from the 67 team at Frisco.

Remember this, we teach (at the Judging Retreat) not to break down assemblies unless it is spelled out in the line item of the judging sheet. So the carb is a single assembly. we don't break it down into bowls, metering blocks, base plates, etc.. So a couple major differences will get you a 20% deduct. Something minor might be overlooked.

I hope this helps with your decision.

Joe

[Terry M.]

Re: Service Replacement Carb point deduction

I think you have both a Configuration issue & a date issue. There will be differences between the Service carbs & the originals. I think you will see a 40% deduct from the 67 team at Frisco.

Remember this, we teach (at the Judging Retreat) not to break down assemblies unless it is spelled out in the line item of the judging sheet. So the carb is a single assembly. we don't break it down into bowls, metering blocks, base plates, etc.. So a couple major differences will get you a 20% deduct. Something minor might be overlooked.

I hope this helps with your decision.

Joe

Joe
What is the configuration difference in the service replacement triple carbs?

I am asking for a friend.

[Roy S.]

Re: Service Replacement Carb point deduction

I know some of them, float bowl fittings, float bowl screws, color of high idle cam, etc.

[Joseph S.]

Re: Service Replacement Carb point deduction

Yes, Roy is correct. There are a bunch of subtle differences that the 67 judges will catch. Float bowl screws are the biggest issue. There sometimes are others, float adjusting screws, shape of baseplates, butterfly screws, metering block numbers.

[Roy S.]

[Gary B.]

Re: Service Replacement Carb point deduction

Roy,

Back in March of this year, there was a thread about judging the originality of a slightly incorrect radiator cap. Terry McManmon offered the following:

To put all of this thread in perspective there are 3 originality points for the radiator cap on the 1968-72 score sheets. Since the cap you have is only slightly different in configuration (stamped number(s)) we have a minor configuration deduction. Now 20% of those three points is a total configuration deduct. Figure 20% of three points is less than 1 (in fact it is around half a point), and one can debate for a long time if that slight difference in configuration merits a total configuration deduct or not. BTW: some judges do not believe in partialCDCIFdeductions

[David H.]

Re: Service Replacement Carb point deduction

But isn’t taking a 20% deduction like saying the configuration is completely wrong? I get the 20% for date it is completely wrong. For a full configuration deduction it should be seriously wrong, shouldn’t it?

Up too 20% is all you can take for configuration. How can you say it’s 20% or nothing?

Roy

Current approach is to take a flat (no discretion) 20% for configuration issue(s). Condition (minor/moderate/severe) has judges discretion percentage leeway e.g. Minor 1-25%.

Replacing Float Bowl Screws would eliminate most obvious configuration issue. (Expect service replacement carburetor in question would have had screws replaced.). What seems to get lost in Flight judging is our restored standard of Appearance of Originality vs Bowtie actual Originality. How fine a line to draw on Appearance of Originality compared to "Original"?

Enough confusion getting folks to break-down and apply percentages to line items with multiple components. In this instance, break-down of carburetor parts into percentages, and applying CDCIF deductions in a timely fashion, would be a challenge for many judges.

Always trade-offs seeking more precision. A more precise CDCIF system could be devised, but I wonder if it could be implemented, especially at a Chapter level. I seem to have enough issues with the current system.

Dave

Added: Many line items have few points assigned to begin with. Breaking down an assembly (carburetor) into it's constituent parts and then applying CDCIF deduction percentage, could put judging into a "No Points Deducted" and only "Notes" written. Taken to extreme, you wind up with "Everything becomes Nothing" evaluations. Point well taken on percent deduction vs significance of Configuration issues. However, consistent implementation of a more precise process from Chapter to National level judging seems problematic, given difficulties we already face with a simpler system.

[Michael J.]

Re: Service Replacement Carb point deduction

In looking back at my National score sheets, I received a full 20% configuration deduction for my Holley on my '66 L36 due to the wrong fast idle cam lever color. No other deductions for DCIF.

[Terry M.]

Re: Service Replacement Carb point deduction

Roy,

Back in March of this year, there was a thread about judging the originality of a slightly incorrect radiator cap. Terry McManmon offered the following:

To put all of this thread in perspective there are 3 originality points for the radiator cap on the 1968-72 score sheets. Since the cap you have is only slightly different in configuration (stamped number(s)) we have a minor configuration deduction. Now 20% of those three points is a total configuration deduct. Figure 20% of three points is less than 1 (in fact it is around half a point), and one can debate for a long time if that slight difference in configuration merits a total configuration deduct or not. BTW: some judges do not believe in partialCDCIFdeductions

You took the words out of my mouth Gary.

I suspect this discussion will come down to the instructions from the National Team Leader; just like the dots in the margin. I haven't looked for the originality numbers we have for mid-year carburetor, but I suspect it is much more than the radiator cap mentioned earlier. I'll get my popcorn in hand to see what happens.