Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

[Garry B.]

For those of you following the auction of the Yellow '67 Survivor Coupe on BAT (amazing car), I have a question. So often we hear Master judges say that there should be very light "if any" paint on the undermost areas of the front and rear lower valances because the painters didn't bend over that far with their spray guns. Most will also say some original red primer may be visible. With that said, there are some very good photos of these areas included in the photo library of this auctioned '67 and unless my old man vision has deteriorated beyond repair with reading glasses, there is significant paint in both of these areas. In other words, I don't see areas where there is no paint and in one area I see paint, light paint coverage and then heavier paint as I move towards the undercarriage. This appears to be one of the finest examples of an unrestored '67 and is further supported by all of the important judging credentials as well as having been owned by a '67 National Team Leader.

I have been an NCRS member for 35 years plus and have always respected judges who acknowledge that not all cars and in this case not all painters were alike. Unless I am terribly wrong, this no paint assumption is an example of what has been accepted as absolute over time that needs to be appropriately adjusted based on this and other survivor cars I have seen over the years. I am not saying that there are no original paint cars out there that don't have paint in these areas, there are, but clearly there were cars and painters that made the effort to get paint coverage in these areas. I don't recall what the JG says and it may say "may have little or no paint", but most do not refer to the JG on paint when in the field actually judging. One mans viewpoint. Thanks for reading.
Garry Barnes #18531

[Keith B.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

since the car was painted by two painters one on each side, I would be looking for differences of converge on both sides. on the other thread about this car I asked why all the overspray behind the grille.

[Garry B.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

Keith, that all comes into play for sure. What other thread? The one on the auction site itself?

[Keith B.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

it was on page two

67 L36 C60 Cpe. on BAT Auction (ncrs.org)

[Garry B.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

good question. seems that if the lower valance has paint that there would be some overspray in those areas. Up and behind the grill is a little curious though.

[Keith B.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

My understanding is black out was down AFTER body color

[Mark F.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

Paint Booth lower rockers coverage_001.jpg

Here's a shot from one of John Hinckley's PowerPoint presentations

Note how far bent over the passenger side painter is...
Conveyors were not as ergonomically friendly back then as they are today - all fixed at one, un-adjustable height.

When I was in full size Van paint booths (non-GM) the painters stood on a platform that had a hydraulic (or pneumatic can't remember) lift. Step on the footswitch and the platform elevated about two feet so the painters could be high enough to paint the roof (full size vans back then were fairly tall). The painters would take turns who went 1st so they wouldn't be spraying each other in the face...after completing their side of the roof, the footswitch was hit a second time, which lowered the platform back down to booth floor level.

As others have stated on TDB, most cars are painted by robots today, so "bending over" and complete coverage is no longer an issue

[Garry B.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

I appreciate you guys and your comments. I wasn't really looking for comments as much as hoping others would acknowledge that with so many things about these cars, they were assembled by humans. I think it's fair to say that different glosses of paint can be considered TF, parts like headlight bulbs and seat textures can be view as consistent, even tires, trim rings and center caps are all examples of consistent TF, but an item such as paint, especially in the area of this discussion, that is applied by a human(s) can vary greatly and should be judged as such and carry a much wider definition of TF.

[Eric P.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

It looks like the question about the paint being 100% original on this car listed on BaT has been addressed in some new comments in the listing.

[Gary S.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

So the car was awarded three Stars and rejected the 4th for paint in 2003 (I was there watching the judging and heard it). But in 2014 Bloomington gave it their Survivor Gold...their highest. Makes you wonder. The auction was fun to watch and appears the bidders got in a war with the final winner at $195,000. I think the driving video at 80 mph thru the N11's pumped up the blood of many. And, how great the car is going back to Syracuse where it was sold and owed by three people til 1998.

[Ronald L.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

It looks like the question about the paint being 100% original on this car listed on BaT has been addressed in some new comments in the listing.

Eric, please clarify where & what you mean by new comments in the listing...


Gary,
Do you really think overspray didn't happen in the grille opening?

I have the same thing - heavy paint that was blacked out...


What really is needed is to define --- in writing ---the standard for original paint. Supposeldy Bow Tie standard was 85%.

I recall at One national a number of individuals fretting over a "touched up" nose panel, and lower brow that I pointed out when you crawled under you could see...differences.

The point here and back on the car I reference... the obvious touch up --- to the trained eye --- was less that 5% of the total surface area, and if you count the panels, 13 of 15 were clearly the same, that is 87%....so it should have passed by that standard too.



Question is:
85% of what?
How is the standard defined?
Major panels on the car?
Total surface area, then you measure the touched up areas and subtract?

Or... is it the friends and family method?

[Harry S.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

This is a 64 in the oven. I think there could be overspray everywhere behind the grill.

64 Overspray.jpg

[Mark F.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

Agree with Harry...
Everywhere, indeed...

- 1 Grille opening in Paint Booth StLBodyPaintShop_079.jpg

[Mark F.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

Eric, please clarify where & what you mean by new comments in the listing...

I think these are the comments Eric was talking about all the way close to the end of the postings...

PS - I have no idea what "factory paint paks" are ??

...Some auction comments being made about paintpaint. I was there, standing by the car, when it was being Bowtie judged by the NCRS for owner #4. The issue with the judges was mostly about the hood being a different, lighter shade of yellow, which looked factory original, from the rest of the car. It was that way when I bought it. Painting the hood would be difficult if wanting to leave that factory black stripe on it. I never touched the paint, but when I bought it, it came with two factory paint paks of sunfire yellow paint. I always thought a 3rd one might have been used on the car before I bought it...

[Ronald L.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

Mark,
That other thread has only three postings in total and isn't indicating paint paks...
Paint doesn't come in packs, at best quart metal cans.

Supposing...just thinking you could paint the hood except the stripe, however I suggest there would be evidence of that if you look closely.

If you thought that the car had touch up, what evidence is there on the other panels?



Here again - my comments on Judging Standards is ignored.

The hood is one panel, supposedly the Paint has to be 85%, what part of "one of 14" panels would this not meet?

What part of total painted surface area would this be?


OK - got it, the friends and family standard wasn't met in this case, but if you are meeting that category, you can put a faked main case in with wrong fonts and call it bow tie survivor.

I think these are the comments Eric was talking about all the way close to the end of the postings...

PS - I have no idea what "factory paint paks" are ??

...Some auction comments being made about paint are not quite true. No one has asked why the car only received three and not 4 stars in NCRS Bowtie judging. The 4th Bowtie was not granted for the car’s paint. I was there, standing by the car, when it was being Bowtie judged by the NCRS for owner #4. The issue with the judges was mostly about the hood being a different, lighter shade of yellow, which looked factory original, from the rest of the car. It was that way when I bought it. Painting the hood would be difficult if wanting to leave that factory black stripe on it. I never touched the paint, but when I bought it, it came with two factory paint paks of sunfire yellow paint. I always thought a 3rd one might have been used on the car before I bought it...