Casting date and engine assembly date for late 1969 big block

[Mark F.]

Re: Casting date and engine assembly date for late 1969 big block

Hi Joseph...Plus, it looks like engine assembly is the critical path in the date sequencing - castings apparently were available on the same site, but assembling them across the way was taking longer - hence the date spread...

Another thought came to mind...

Could it be a stockpiling issue, whereby once the Mold and Core Depts and associated downstream Casting Line are all set up for a give run of a specific part (block in this case) they run more than what they actually have orders for ?

The only issue there is you have to have space to store the castings until the Engine Plant(s) needed them.

Stockpiling could be another factor for the date spread issue mentioned.

[Joe L.]

Re: Casting date and engine assembly date for late 1969 big block

Another thought came to mind...

Could it be a stockpiling issue, whereby once the Mold and Core Depts and associated downstream Casting Line are all set up for a give run of a specific part (block in this case) they run more than what they actually have orders for ?

The only issue there is you have to have space to store the castings until the Engine Plant(s) needed them.

Stockpiling could be another factor for the date spread issue mentioned.

Mark------


I've always believed that stockpiling is the reason. As I mentioned, at the time the Tonawanda Foundry and Tonawanda Engine Plant were co-located. So, there was no transportation reason for a delay between casting and assembly.

By the way, much later, in the mid 1980's, the Tonawanda foundry was closed. At that time, big block castings were transferred to the Defiance, OH gray iron foundry.

[Terry M.]

Re: Casting date and engine assembly date for late 1969 big block

Another thought came to mind...

Could it be a stockpiling issue, whereby once the Mold and Core Depts and associated downstream Casting Line are all set up for a give run of a specific part (block in this case) they run more than what they actually have orders for ?

The only issue there is you have to have space to store the castings until the Engine Plant(s) needed them.

Stockpiling could be another factor for the date spread issue mentioned.

Mark
You, and now Joe L may be on to something.

My source at Tonawanda (since passed unfortunately) once said to me when we were discussing casting dates: "wait until you guys find out about the Pierce-Arrow warehouse." I have regretted more than once (and now again) not pursuing that hint. Unfortunately that guy was skeptical of our close scrutiny of his work product and his real interest was not Corvettes. He tolerated my questions more than encourageg them.

[Joe L.]

Re: Casting date and engine assembly date for late 1969 big block

Mark
You, and now Joe L may be on to something.

My source at Tonawanda (since passed unfortunately) once said to me when we were discussing casting dates: "wait until you guys find out about the Pierce-Arrow warehouse." I have regretted more than once (and now again) not pursuing that hint. Unfortunately that guy was skeptical of our close scrutiny of his work product and his real interest was not Corvettes. He tolerated my questions more than encourageg them.

Terry-------

NCRS member Ken Kayser worked at the Tonawanda engine plant for many years. As far as I know, he's still around and might be able to shed some light on the question.

[Mark F.]

Re: Casting date and engine assembly date for late 1969 big block

Mark------I've always believed that stockpiling is the reason. As I mentioned, at the time the Tonawanda Foundry and Tonawanda Engine Plant were co-located. So, there was no transportation reason for a delay between casting and assembly...By the way, much later, in the mid 1980's, the Tonawanda foundry was closed. At that time, big block castings were transferred to the Defiance, OH gray iron foundry.

Mark You, and now Joe L may be on to something. My source at Tonawanda (since passed unfortunately) once said to me when we were discussing casting dates: "wait until you guys find out about the Pierce-Arrow warehouse." I have regretted more than once (and now again) not pursuing that hint. Unfortunately that guy was skeptical of our close scrutiny of his work product and his real interest was not Corvettes. He tolerated my questions more than encourageg them.

https://pierce-arrow.org/

[Joseph W.]

Re: Casting date and engine assembly date for late 1969 big block

Interesting that Ken Kayser's name came up in this thread.
The engine builder mentioned that he has had many conversations with Ken and used those conversations as validation of making the decision to go with the Oct block.
What I’m taking away from my research, this forum, and my knowledgeable NCRS mentors is that, yes, the block could have been cast on October 14, 1969 (a Tuesday) and then assembled on October 20, 1969 ( a Monday).
But a much more realistic situation would have been a block cast Sept. 5, 1969 and then assembled on Oct 20, 1969.

I was under the assumption that these castings would have to cool, and then they could have been assembled. I also know that there was no first in first out rule at Tonawanda.
How long would a big block have to cool before they would assemble it?
Were they assembling engines on Saturday and Sunday?

At the end of the day, I’m happy to have the block. He sold it to me for a really fair price along with a a set of dimple connecting rods.
Now……..if there’s an issue with this particular block, I’m going to be unhappy.

[Joe L.]

Re: Casting date and engine assembly date for late 1969 big block

Interesting that Ken Kayser's name came up in this thread.
The engine builder mentioned that he has had many conversations with Ken and used those conversations as validation of making the decision to go with the Oct block.
What I’m taking away from my research, this forum, and my knowledgeable NCRS mentors is that, yes, the block could have been cast on October 14, 1969 (a Tuesday) and then assembled on October 20, 1969 ( a Monday).
But a much more realistic situation would have been a block cast Sept. 5, 1969 and then assembled on Oct 20, 1969.

I was under the assumption that these castings would have to cool, and then they could have been assembled. I also know that there was no first in first out rule at Tonawanda.
How long would a big block have to cool before they would assemble it?
Were they assembling engines on Saturday and Sunday?

At the end of the day, I’m happy to have the block. He sold it to me for a really fair price along with a a set of dimple connecting rods.
Now……..if there’s an issue with this particular block, I’m going to be unhappy.

Joseph------


Well, I've heard of cases of small blocks being cast in Saginaw, MI on a given day, transported to Flint, and machined/assembled in Flint on the next day. So, if it could be done there, it could be done in Tonawanda.

[Joseph W.]

Re: Casting date and engine assembly date for late 1969 big block

Joseph,
What part of California are you located?

I live in Ojai, CA

[Justin S.]

Re: Casting date and engine assembly date for late 1969 big block

I'm glad you received the block you paid for. I was going to recommend a machinist but you're a long way from the bay area.

[Mark F.]

Re: Casting date and engine assembly date for late 1969 big block

Interesting that Ken Kayser's name came up in this thread...I was under the assumption that these castings would have to cool, and then they could have been assembled. I also know that there was no first in first out rule at Tonawanda. How long would a big block have to cool before they would assemble it? Were they assembling engines on Saturday and Sunday?

Joseph,

Yes, blocks have to cool down and as a matter of fact, the cooling rate is critical for proper final part sizing; metallurgical characteristics; strength; etc. The line speed from the melt/pouring station all the way thru to shakeout; de-burring, sprue removal, de-gating, etc. was controlled for many reasons, but one of them was proper cooling time. By the time a fresh block went thru all these stations and got "racked" for transport to the Engine Plants, they were probably cool enough to touch.

But even if they weren't and they got to collocated Engine Assembly Plants ASAP, some of the first stations in the Engine Plants were fairly enclosed broaching and line boring machines, which got the rough casting "squared up" (dimensionally correct) ready for additional machine tooling stations that drilled and tapped all the holes needed for subsequent assembly steps. These machines were nearly all-enclosed because all of the tooling inside was constantly being drenched with cutting lubricant. So by the time the broached, bored, drilled and tapped block got thru all those stations, it was essentially down to room temperature.

As for Saturday and Sunday engine assembling, I don't know if that happened or not, but it wouldn't surprise me if some were out there. Engine Assembly lines were complicated, integrated moving machines and just like any assembly line, things would break down and need repaired. When that happened, all h*** would break loose until maintenance guys could make repairs and get the line back up and running.

[Joseph W.]

Re: Casting date and engine assembly date for late 1969 big block

Joseph,

Yes, blocks have to cool down and as a matter of fact, the cooling rate is critical for proper final part sizing; metallurgical characteristics; strength; etc. The line speed from the melt/pouring station all the way thru to shakeout; de-burring, sprue removal, de-gating, etc. was controlled for many reasons, but one of them was proper cooling time. By the time a fresh block went thru all these stations and got "racked" for transport to the Engine Plants, they were probably cool enough to touch.

But even if they weren't and they got to collocated Engine Assembly Plants ASAP, some of the first stations in the Engine Plants were fairly enclosed broaching and line boring machines, which got the rough casting "squared up" (dimensionally correct) ready for additional machine tooling stations that drilled and tapped all the holes needed for subsequent assembly steps. These machines were nearly all-enclosed because all of the tooling inside was constantly being drenched with cutting lubricant. So by the time the broached, bored, drilled and tapped block got thru all those stations, it was essentially down to room temperature.

As for Saturday and Sunday engine assembling, I don't know if that happened or not, but it wouldn't surprise me if some were out there. Engine Assembly lines were complicated, integrated moving machines and just like any assembly line, things would break down and need repaired. When that happened, all h*** would break loose until maintenance guys could make repairs and get the line back up and running.

Appreciate all your knowledge And the time to put it in writing.
Ive learned a lot on this thread.

[Mike E.]

Re: Casting date and engine assembly date for late 1969 big block

Some added data--all are original 454 motors:
1971 cast B 8 1 in June 15, 71 (assembly date decked)

1971 cast L 5 70, assembled February 27, installed in car built March 19. (This is a batch-built LS6 motor)

1971 cast A 30 71, assembled March 9, installed in car built March 16.

1972 cast H 30 71, assembled September 9, 1971, installed in car built October 15, 1971.

[Mark F.]

Re: Casting date and engine assembly date for late 1969 big block

Here's what we have so far from the two posts involving casting date and engine assembly date spreads...
sorted by year - then cast date

[Joseph W.]

Re: Casting date and engine assembly date for late 1969 big block

Wow!
thank you for taking the time to do that!
very interesting

[Patrick B.]