Correct color for '64 912A

[Nick D.]

There is the difficulty - thinking that there are "exact matches" that are both easily obtained and easily acceptable. Having had 20-30 sprays of this same color last summer, some of which were believed by their manufacturers to be "exact," it just doesn't happen. TINY changes in the mix can result in notable differences in shading.

As I previously noted, the Axalta mix appeared to be the correct color; it just didn't match what was on the car. I'd happily send you the sprayout card if it still exists. My body shop guy may have tossed it out.

Find an auto body shop - even a collision shop - on the island that uses Axalta paints. There will be at least one.
They can mix the current code, and I think it will be close. Have them do a sprayout and compare it to your door jambs and the rest of your car. This will be FAR easier than coordinating with someone on the mainland.

From what your pictures "seem" to show, the jambs of your car don't match the exterior surfaces. Is that correct?
And I do not think that your 64 is Trophy Blue.

[Tom D.]

Re: Correct color for '64 912A

1966 with hubcaps - 1.jpg1966 with mags - 1.jpg
Same car, same paint, different lighting... Trophy Blue single stage repainted ten years ago.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Correct color for '64 912A

I think Deltron has the wrong color but anyway, I’m gonna let it go.
I guess I need to accept that either the original owner or the guy that bought it from him changed the color. I did my best and I’ll be satisfied with that

Guys, I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Thank you.

I'll throw this out one more time - I don't think anyone "changed" the color.
I suspect that someone purchased WHAT THE SUPPLIER provided as the correct color based on what Deltron told them was correct, and sprayed the car. However, it doesn't match what was on the car on Day 1. It takes a LOT to make a color match what was on the car Day 1. I think we've all tried to tell you that. Someone didn't do that; blame who you will. It's one reason that I refuse to let my friend strip his 71 coupe until AFTER there is a paint matched to his original shade.

Back in 1993, we bought our first (of only 2 so far) brand-new car. 1 month later a deer jumped off a hill next to the road as my wife was driving and took out the driver's side of the car. The body shop painted the car - brand new, after all - and it didn't match. At that time there was only 1 code listed in PPG's books.
The gas door from the car went to PPG, and Variance #1 listed in their books was our car. The car was repainted and it was perfect.

Now take it 60 years later and how many variations plus a change from lacquer to who knows what to BC/CC, and it's no wonder the paint in the can doesn't match your 64.

[Nick D.]

Re: Correct color for '64 912A

OK, I'm wearing out my welcome here. So be it. I am a stickler for detail.

I print official corporate logo colors for two story trade show exhibits for a living. Big bucks, big corporations...for the last 30 years. If I and my industry partners get a color wrong, there's a riot by the client, the designer, the printer and my production people.

In my industry, EVERYONE, universally uses the Pantone Matching System (PMS) Color Reference, which shows over 2100 different shades of colors. I know the difference from one shade to the other. Take my word for it. I can tell the difference from one shade to the other.

When I restored a '56 Continental Mark II to 100 points, according to the Lincoln and Continental Owners Club (LCOC) I had to get the right mix for the right shade, the right size metal flake, the right psi on the paint gun. The grain of the leather seats had to be exactly correct. Only 3000 were built. It was the most expensive American car in '56. Few cars are subject to that level of scrutiny.
How does NCRS tell one shade from the other?

All I want to know is this. Does 1966 Trophy Blue have a silver tint or not. Color references I see say it does. You guys say it doesn't. You are the experts. I live on a tiny island. Asking that simple question here is the best I can do and believe me, the process is.. let's say, humbling.... and exhausting.

Again, I thank you for your time and patience with me. Not another word on the subject
Aloha,
Nick

[Joseph S.]

Re: Correct color for '64 912A

Nick, In all your responses you have yet to address the questions asked of you. No one is telling you that your car is the "Correct shade"! Most of the responding members what to know 2 things. 1: What is your end goal here? 2: Did you ask to have the color matched before they sprayed the car? You say that you did that exact thing with the Continental color, why did you not do that with this Corvette color.

In our shop we will not paint a car without a signed spray out card. Once the color is approved, we will spray.

If you are looking for an NCRS member to approve or disapprove your current color, that won't happen with photos. It's clear that the outside of the car does not match the jambs. If in fact, the jambs are the original Silver Blue color, the outside of the car was not properly matched to the jambs. PPG's version of Silver Blue may be what was sprayed but their formulas are never a perfect match.

Regards, Joe

[Nick D.]

Re: Correct color for '64 912A

I shipped the car to Honolulu for repair to Chuck's Corvette Clinic. When I picked it up, it was a different color. It's not a matter of money. The guy won't fix it, says I'm too picky.

The new color looks like a '66 color and the old color looks like a '64 color. The original post has a picture of the paint can, the 1964 912 color code and it looks like the '66 color.

The paint can label says 912, Marlin Blue, Silver Blue Poly, WA2973 and color drip you can see in the photo sure looks like '66 Trophy Blue to me. My car looks like Trophy Blue.

I've tried to be clear that my question is not about the nuances of shades. '66 visually could easily be described as a silver blue color (which is how my car looks in real life) but it's called Trophy Blue. '64 Silver Blue has no silver in it and is a much richer blue color and thats what my car used to look like.. and my door jams still look like that. These are not subtle differences.

I posted two color reference photos that used Coupes in the sample. The difference between those to colors is exactly the difference between the two on my car. Take my word for it.

Seems hard to believe Deltron wojuld get the color wrong but thats what it appears to me.

The problem is the name of the color and the visual description of it are mixed up between the two years and it's an easy mistake to make...except, it seems unbelievable to me.

My motivation is that based on the history of the car, I would not have changed the color. It's a solid #3 and will never be more than that. In this particualr case, maintaining it as it was is more important than authenticity. However, being the third owner, I have trouble believing the original owner would have changed the color and if he did, he took everything apart to do it.

And yes I am more than PO'd that Chuck changed the color of my car without discussing it first... and worse, didn't give me the option of spending another $1000 or whatever to paint the door jams. That's humilating.

I didn't want to get into all that but perhaps that clears up any misunderstandings.

Nick, In all your responses you have yet to address the questions asked of you. No one is telling you that your car is the "Correct shade"! Most of the responding members what to know 2 things. 1: What is your end goal here? 2: Did you ask to have the color matched before they sprayed the car? You say that you did that exact thing with the Continental color, why did you not do that with this Corvette color.

In our shop we will not paint a car without a signed spray out card. Once the color is approved, we will spray.

If you are looking for an NCRS member to approve or disapprove your current color, that won't happen with photos. It's clear that the outside of the car does not match the jambs. If in fact, the jambs are the original Silver Blue color, the outside of the car was not properly matched to the jambs. PPG's version of Silver Blue may be what was sprayed but their formulas are never a perfect match.

Regards, Joe

[Joseph S.]

Re: Correct color for '64 912A

Nick, You still have not answered question #1. What is your end goal here? What are you looking for?

[Nick D.]

Re: Correct color for '64 912A

I wanted confirmation on these two things but didn't want to lead you to the answer I want.

Goal: Confirm these two things.

1. The outside of my car closely remembles '66 Trophy Blue and the door jams closely resemble '64 Silver Blue. Generally but I think pretty close.

2. Deltron has the wrong color for '64. I find it hard to believe that can be but thats what the color of my car tells me. It looks very close to '66 Trophy Blue.

I posted a picture of the label on the paint can which references 912, F, WA2973, WA3081. Marlin Blue, Silver Blue Poly. Looks like correct specs to me but wrong color.


The car in the full on side view is mine, in front of the shop. The door picture shows the difference I have now. The pic of me with the mountain behind me is when I bought it in Texas. I is pretty accurate, color wise.

Color reference pics came from here:

1966 Trophy Blue

https://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorco...ette1966WA3524

1966 Silver Blue

https://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorco...scomm=&rows=50

I can't wrap my head around Deltron getting the color wrong and I can't wrap my head around Chuck's Corvette Clinic not recognizing that, after 30 plus years. But thats the way it looks to me. I may be nuts but not nuts enough to be wrong about this...far as I can see... you never know

[Patrick H.]

Re: Correct color for '64 912A

I wanted confirmation on these two things but didn't want to lead you to the answer I want.

Goal: Confirm these two things.

1. The outside of my car closely remembles '66 Trophy Blue and the door jams closely resemble '64 Silver Blue. Generally but I think pretty close.

2. Deltron has the wrong color for '64. I find it hard to believe that can be but thats what the color of my car tells me. It looks very close to '66 Trophy Blue.

I can't wrap my head around Deltron getting the color wrong and I can't wrap my head around Chuck's Corvette Clinic not recognizing that, after 30 plus years. But thats the way it looks to me. I may be nuts but not nuts enough to be wrong about this...far as I can see... you never know

1.2.

[Nick D.]

Re: Correct color for '64 912A

OK, I'm satisfied. I got my answer.
1. The exterior does not appear to be the correct color.
2. It is in fact, possible that Deltron got the color wrong, given the answer to #1 above. I would not imagine that to be possible. As I mentioned, in my industry, graphics being the focus, the standard is that everyone assumes that for the most part, a shade of a color is going to print out accurately, if the art is correct. If the shade is off, they stop the presses. (In this case, there is something to compare it to and NCRS has no problem saying what is correct, if it can be seen in person)).

OK, Now I can wrap. I had found this scenario unbelievable. The paint is the wrong color, not just a shade off. I had put my car on a ship again, this time, not 2500 miles, just a couple hundred, to another island, to put it in the hands of a professional and that did not work out. OK, they gave him the wrong color. Still, no remedy is available. I'm not suggesting anyone should agree or disagree with him but these are the facts. I am more than dissapointed about that.

I didn't mention that two weeks after my dream car arrived on Maui, my mechanic left it in gear during a compression test and crashed it. There are more than a few things I am struggling to wrap my head around.

Thank you. Case closed.

1.2.

[Peter G.]

Re: Correct color for '64 912A

After spending a couple of summers painting Corvettes, I would like to add to this discussion.

At the present time, I've counted at least six different automobile paint manufacturers which include, PPG, RM, Sherwin Williams, Du Pont, TCP Global, Eastwood. House of Kolor still counts even though the majority of its product line are custom colors. None of these companies use the exact same chemistry to create their paints or their dyes. There are subtle differences between all of them. In addition, when any automotive paint is thinned, the amount of thinner added relates directly to the temperature that particular day. If it is warmer or colder the next day or next week, a different amount of thinner is added to the paint. The amount of thinner will affect the final shade of the paint. Additional additives to control moisture based upon the humidity levels the day of painting also affect the final shade.

My advice is to use a scrap panel, or some piece of fiberglass or metal, to test your shade before applying any paint to your Corvette. The test panel will clearly represent what the final color looks like. You can adjust the paint activator or reducer to fine tune the shade of the color. I suspect that most body shops are not testing the shade before they paint the whole car as their work is based on productivity and not judging points.

The type of metallic chosen can affect the final shade of the paint as well. Metallics are added to paint colors separately and must be kept agitated for proper suspension within the paint. All of the 60's and 70's Corvettes used an aluminum metallic, not to be confused with metalflake, which is a much larger squared off aluminum shaving. Our Corvettes from this era did NOT use any color tinted metallic flecks or flakes that have been recently observed in some Top Flight judging entrants. The metallics are not intended to be sprayed on the final few passes of the spray gun. The metallic shavings will naturally settle at the bottom of the paint can. An assistant needs to help the painter maintain proper metallic suspension in the paint from start to finish. If you wait to use the metallic shavings until the final top layers of paint, the high metallic content will throw off your color.

I have personally found the PPG paint products offer the best duplication of factory colors when thinned and reduced properly.

The type of spray gun will not affect the final color, but it will affect the texture of the top layer of paint. Most body shops are EPA compliant and they use modern low pressure paint guns that spray highly atomized coats of paint onto a car. The archaic high pressure systems from the 60's and 70's are not EPA compliant. These old, high pressure paint spray systems created less than desirable top layers with a lot of orange peel. Hand sanding and buffing were required to correct the inadequacies of this old technique. Modern day spray guns create a much smoother surface compared to what was done 50 plus years ago. The modern automotive paint systems reduce the amount of aerosolized carcinogens floating in the air, they reduce the final cutting and polishing time, and they reduce the total amount of time the cars are in the shop.

More detailed conversations with your body shop PRIOR to work is critical when it comes to your expectations of the finished paint job on your Corvette.

64-PPG-Ditzler.jpg

64-RM-colors.jpg

[Nick D.]

Re: Correct color for '64 912A

Hi Peter! This is fantastic info that includes the kinds of details I mentioned in one of my responses, of what it took to get my '56 Mark II Continental to 100 points. Here, you've explained info about the metallic components and more, which I will reference if I someday repaint my car. If you could upload a higher resolution version of the color cards you have, if you have higher res, I'd appreciate it.

In my case, as you can see in this string,the issue is color, not shade. The photo of my door shows the original color on the door and the new color on the outside of the door. Again, this is about color not shade. Pretty black and white.

I sent an email to PPG about this. It will be interesting to see what they say. You mentioned that in your experience, PPG provides the best color duplication. As far as I can tell, the paint color they provided for '64 Silver Blue (a fairly rich blue color) looks spot on for '66 Trophy Blue...which if you had to describe what that looks like, I think everyone would agree that generally, it looks silver blue. GM should not have mixed up names and color descriptions, especially on the same make, two years apart.

It will be interesting to see their response. I suggested they test the same color, spec'd for Olds and Pointiac that year and see if they all look the same. Pretty easy. The Body Shop should take this up with them but he says I'm too picky and washed his hands of me. BUT, I don't think he realizes that he was given the wrong color using the correct Corvette Color Code and name.

I have a feeling PPG is going to say opps, sorry. Here is 3 quarts of the correct color and the body shop is going to say, thats nice, who's going to pay for the repaint labor? At least now I know that Chuck ordered it correctly. It never occured to me to compare the paint can label and the actual paint color but thats how I figured it out. Once I hear back from PPG, I'll see what he says. I'm not going to fly over to Honolulu just to discuss in person.

Kind of a perfect storm problem

After spending a couple of summers painting Corvettes, I would like to add to this discussion.

At the present time, I've counted at least six different automobile paint manufacturers which include, PPG, RM, Sherwin Williams, Du Pont, TCP Global, Eastwood. House of Kolor still counts even though the majority of its product line are custom colors. None of these companies use the exact same chemistry to create their paints or their dyes. There are subtle differences between all of them. In addition, when any automotive paint is thinned, the amount of thinner added relates directly to the temperature that particular day. If it is warmer or colder the next day or next week, a different amount of thinner is added to the paint. The amount of thinner will affect the final shade of the paint. Additional additives to control moisture based upon the humidity levels the day of painting also affect the final shade.

My advice is to use a scrap panel, or some piece of fiberglass or metal, to test your shade before applying any paint to your Corvette. The test panel will clearly represent what the final color looks like. You can adjust the paint activator or reducer to fine tune the shade of the color. I suspect that most body shops are not testing the shade before they paint the whole car as their work is based on productivity and not judging points.

The type of metallic chosen can affect the final shade of the paint as well. Metallics are added to paint colors separately and must be kept agitated for proper suspension within the paint. All of the 60's and 70's Corvettes used an aluminum metallic, not to be confused with metalflake, which is a much larger squared off aluminum shaving. Our Corvettes from this era did NOT use any color tinted metallic flecks or flakes that have been recently observed in some Top Flight judging entrants. The metallics are not intended to be sprayed on the final few passes of the spray gun. The metallic shavings will naturally settle at the bottom of the paint can. An assistant needs to help the painter maintain proper metallic suspension in the paint from start to finish. If you wait to use the metallic shavings until the final top layers of paint, the high metallic content will throw off your color.

I have personally found the PPG paint products offer the best duplication of factory colors when thinned and reduced properly.

The type of spray gun will not affect the final color, but it will affect the texture of the top layer of paint. Most body shops are EPA compliant and they use modern low pressure paint guns that spray highly atomized coats of paint onto a car. The archaic high pressure systems from the 60's and 70's are not EPA compliant. These old, high pressure paint spray systems created less than desirable top layers with a lot of orange peel. Hand sanding and buffing were required to correct the inadequacies of this old technique. Modern day spray guns create a much smoother surface compared to what was done 50 plus years ago. The modern automotive paint systems reduce the amount of aerosolized carcinogens floating in the air, they reduce the final cutting and polishing time, and they reduce the total amount of time the cars are in the shop.

More detailed conversations with your body shop PRIOR to work is critical when it comes to your expectations of the finished paint job on your Corvette.

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[ATTACH=CONFIG]116606[/ATTACH]

[Peter G.]

Re: Correct color for '64 912A

Nick,
Yes, it does indeed look as if your car was repainted in a completely different color than Silver Blue 912.
It's a shame that your painter didn't spray a test panel to see if the paint that he was given would match your door jam paint.
I agree that it does look as if the shop sprayed your car with Trophy Blue 980 or something similar to it. It is not only the wrong color of blue, but it is also much lighter as well. It will be interesting to see what PPG says about this. Perhaps the person who mixed the dyes into the paint used 1966 dyes, or substituted some other dyes, instead of the correct dyes for Silver Blue 912, and still labeled it as 1964 Silver Blue 912.

Someone is probably going to make an excuse about a supply chain issue and not having the correct dyes available when the paint was purchased.

The last time I purchased PPG paint, it was mixed right in front of me, so I had more control over the whole process.

I hope PPG treats you right.

[Nick D.]

Re: Correct color for '64 912A

You're the first person to come right out and say the what they used looks like the '66 color . The painter ordered 912 per the trim tag and thats what he used. He might have called me and said it's different than the door jams and given me the opportunity to pay more, which I offered from the get go. PPG booby trapped him. He thinks I'm accuising him of making a mistake thats the last thing he wants to hear.

He's tough, busness like, military-ish), but he is honest and knows his stuff. And look at his place. All he does is Corvettes and he's been there 30 or 40 years.

But he doesn't like me because he thinks I'm too picky. That's his crabby side, which he is kinda known for. It's funny..after I flew back home to Maui, I sent him a $100 gift certificate to go to dinner with his wife who works in the office. She is a sweetheard and others have said so. I told him, why wait to see if you're going to do a good job then give you the gift cert after you've proven yourself. I know you will. Here, enjoy this now.

He made a mistake but it was a set up...that unfolded not in a good way.

Yes, I sure would like to see him and PPG do the right thing, as any professionals should. But these days, arguing and looking at things from a win / loose viewpoint has become fashionalbe. United we stand has pretty much gone out the window. Still, fingers crossed.

We are at the intersting, human interest part of the thread now LOL. (I don't think that's allowed)

Nick,
Yes, it does indeed look as if your car was repainted in a completely different color than Silver Blue 912.
It's a shame that your painter didn't spray a test panel to see if the paint that he was given would match your door jam paint.
I agree that it does look as if the shop sprayed your car with Trophy Blue 980 or something similar to it. It is not only the wrong color of blue, but it is also much lighter as well. It will be interesting to see what PPG says about this. Perhaps the person who mixed the dyes into the paint used 1966 dyes, or substituted some other dyes, instead of the correct dyes for Silver Blue 912, and still labeled it as 1964 Silver Blue 912.

Someone is probably going to make an excuse about a supply chain issue and not having the correct dyes available when the paint was purchased.

The last time I purchased PPG paint, it was mixed right in front of me, so I had more control over the whole process.

I hope PPG treats you right.

[Stewart L.]

Re: Correct color for '64 912A

On about the first day of auto paint school, painters are taught that paint will probably not match out of the can, the color needs to be checked and adjusted as necessary. And in case they have forgotten, on every can of paint the PPG Jobbers sell, it has a big red sticker on it that says STOP, check your color for match before spraying! So it sounds like your shop bypassed the fundamental rule of matching paint to a car, to check your color on a spray out card before painting. What you need to find is an experienced painter schooled in color theory, that is at a shop with a paint mixing bank, the brand of paint doesn't really matter. The painter will not even look at your color code, because your car has been repainted and you need to match that color, and a 60 year old lacquer formula converted to urethane isn't going to be much help. We used to use a color map, a book with 7000 color chips of auto paint colors, and match the car up to a color chip in the book for a starting point. The painter will then mix up some paint from that formula, and spray a "spray out card" and check the match. He will then probably need to adjust the formula and do another card, and keep doing it until he gets a bendable color, that's probably the best you can hope for. In the shop they call this Bench Mixing a color, large shops do it frequently. This custom mixing step could take 4 to 8 hours, and you need a human eye to check the match. Once you get an acceptable match on the spray out card, the painter can proceed to applying paint to the car.
Another option if you can't find a painter or shop that will do the custom match for you, (I don't have a paint mixing bank anymore) I have used TCP Global to custom match colors, you would need to send them a part of the car (head lamp bezel, valance panel)that has the color on it that you want to match, the type of paint (Lacquer, urethane, base clear) and they are pretty good at matching, they have a tech that does it all the time. They would then mix paint and do the spray outs, and ship you the paint and parts.
Good luck with it.