Very Early 1966 427 blocks - NCRS Discussion Boards

Very Early 1966 427 blocks

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  • Patrick B.
    Extremely Frequent Poster
    • August 31, 1985
    • 1986

    Very Early 1966 427 blocks

    I am a long time observer of Corvette engine blocks, and I have never seen or heard of a 3869942 block cast earlier than September1965. NCRS books refer to the possibility that 3855961 blocks were used for very early 427s, but I believe it was really 3855962 blocks that could have filled this gap.

    We know that 3855962 blocks cast in the 1965 model year had the same internal water jacket dimensions as a 427 and could be machined as a 427 block. I have compared the space between cylinders, observed through the freeze plug holes, between 427 blocks and 962 blocks cast between February and June 1965 and found them to be the same. I have owned '65 962 blocks bored to 427 + .060 over (4.31" bore) and run until they were worn out. These thick wall 962 4 bolt blocks are easy to spot because they have two small gussets between the timing chain cover and the intake manifold like ZL-1 aluminum blocks. The 1965 model year 2 bolt blocks were 3855961 castings, and they had the same gussets between the manifold and the TC cover. However, I do not think they had the thick walls. (If anyone reading this has a 65 model year 3855961 block laying around, please measure the distance between the outsides of the cylinders thru the freeze plug holes.)

    In his book about Zora's 1965 L-88 test car, Ken Kayser reported that while GM was deciding which cars would get a 427 in 65 (none it turned out), it had blocks being cast with thick walls for the 427 and blocks being cast for 396's with thin walls. To add to the confusion, he identifies the thick wall blocks as 3855961 2 bolt blocks, and the thin wall blocks as 3855962 4 bolt blocks. However, we have measured the 3855962 blocks and know that they are thick wall blocks identical to the later 427 blocks. Therefore, the casting numbers must have been transposed in his book. Also it would be very inconsistent to make the highest performance 427 engines with 2 bolt blocks and the lower horsepower 396 engines with 4 bolt blocks.

    The most likely source of the idea that early 66 427s used 3855961 blocks was Noland Adams't book. In it, he cites two 66 Corvettes with 961 blocks. One is car #828 with a 961 block cast F185 and stamped T0625LF. LF is the code for a 66 Chevelle 399/325. This engine is simply an early 66 396 Chevelle engine and says nothing about 427 Corvettes. The second car is #4092 which had a 961 block dated J15 and stamped T1013IK. I find this engine to be suspicious. Even the 962 blocks used in Chevelles had reverted to thin wall castings and surely by October 1 of the 66 model year 961 blocks would have had thin walls and would not have become factory 427s. Also, the IK code is suspicious. This would have been a rare M-22 car which invites more skepticism.

    I recently learned of a 962 short block with a casting date of H225. It would fall into the 1966 model year, and I had thought the 66 model year 962 blocks used in Chevelles no longer had the front and rear gussets or the thick walls. However, this block had the gussets and it was wearing 66 production GM 427 L-72 pistons (without the part numbers found on service pistons). This shows that August 962 blocks still had the internal water passages of a 427, and were capable of being used as 427s prior to the casting of 942 blocks. Unfortunately, this block had been decked so there is no proof whether it was an early 66 427 or a 66 Chevelle block early enough to have thick walls which was bored later to 427. At any rate, if there are any 66 Corvettes with 427s made prior to the 942 blocks, I think it is much more likely that they would have August 962 blocks than any 961 block.
  • Keith B.
    Extremely Frequent Poster
    • September 15, 2014
    • 1575

    #2
    Re: Very Early 1966 427 blocks

    I asked this question a few years ago

    1966 427 block usage (ncrs.org)

    Comment

    • Patrick B.
      Extremely Frequent Poster
      • August 31, 1985
      • 1986

      #3

      Comment

      • Robert B.
        Very Frequent User
        • March 1, 1992
        • 263

        #4
        Re: Very Early 1966 427 blocks

        Do't know if this is of any interest to u, but I have a 66 IP 351 block

        Comment

        • Dan A.
          Extremely Frequent Poster
          • May 31, 1974
          • 1074

          #5
          Re: Very Early 1966 427 blocks

          Pics or It Didn't Happen.jpg

          Please.......

          Comment

          • Patrick B.
            Extremely Frequent Poster
            • August 31, 1985
            • 1986

            #6
            Re: Very Early 1966 427 blocks

            Robert- I have seen a couple of very late 66 427's using 351 blocks. I think the blocks were cast in June of 66. What is the casting date of your block and could you post a picture of the stamp pad?

            Comment

            • Patrick B.
              Extremely Frequent Poster
              • August 31, 1985
              • 1986

              #7
              Re: Very Early 1966 427 blocks

              Originally posted by Dan Adie (60)
              [ATTACH=CONFIG]117155[/ATTACH]

              Please.......
              As you wish Dan. I have tried to show a photo of the 961 block with 0.372 inch between cylinders, a 962 block with 0.200 inch between cylinders, and pictures of the front and rear gussets on a 962 block (hanging upside down). I also heard from a member of the TDB who has a 942 block WITH gussets cast Sept 2, 1965. I don't think later 942 blocks have gussets. If any of you have 942 blocks with gussets please give us the casting dates.
              Attached Files

              Comment

              • Dan A.
                Extremely Frequent Poster
                • May 31, 1974
                • 1074

                #8
                Re: Very Early 1966 427 blocks

                Thanks Patrick. I appreciate your efforts. I have the top photo and others. I think it was originally posted by mutual friend Wayne Midkiff. I'm familiar with the gussets. What I am after are photos of the block casting number, casting date and build and VIN stamps on a 1966 model year 427 with a 351 casting.

                Comment

                • Patrick B.
                  Extremely Frequent Poster
                  • August 31, 1985
                  • 1986

                  #9

                  Comment

                  • Larry E.
                    Extremely Frequent Poster
                    • December 1, 1989
                    • 1652

                    #10
                    Re: Very Early 1966 427 blocks

                    FWIW>Got this picture in my files. Been there for a long time. If I read this correct this is a 3869942
                    Cast Block with a Casting Date of "F 6 6". Pictures below. Which bears the question >Could 3869942
                    & "351" block has been cast simultaneoustly?? Do not have a picture of the pad on this engine. Larry
                    Attached Files
                    Larry

                    LT1 in a 1LE -- One of 134

                    Comment

                    • Patrick B.
                      Extremely Frequent Poster
                      • August 31, 1985
                      • 1986

                      #11
                      Re: Very Early 1966 427 blocks

                      Larry- I have another potential interpretation of your photo. I may be F 6 5 rather than F 6 6 since the top of the last letter looks flat rather than curved. The information needed to be sure of the date is whether this block has the gussets over the timing chain cover. It appears that early 942 blocks had the gussets like early 961 and 962 blocks, but sometime early in the 66 model year all three block castings lost their gussets. So the 64 thousand dollar question (for us old enough to remember the first TV quiz show), Larry do you have any picture of front of the block or knowledge of its gussets status?

                      I am starting to think that neither 961 nor 962 blocks were used for early 427s. Maybe 942 blocks were made earlier than September and I had just never seen one. What would solve this mystery is proof of a block with gussets, a casting date of August or earlier, the 3869942 casting number and maybe a 66 Corvette stamping as icing on the cake.

                      Jack Morocco sent me some very tantalizing information and I hope he chimes in with the links he is so good at creating. One set of pictures he sent was for a block with a very original looking stamp of T0902IL for car #269. There is a picture of its gussets and its casting date of H 20 5, however there is no picture of it casting number. It could be 942 or 962, but I am leaning toward 942. Next he sent a link to BAT auction of 66 Corvette number 393. It showed a 942 block with a H 10 5 casting number. The stamping was T0816IL which looked pretty good but could be argued. What made the pictures less than a slam dunk was that there was no clear evidence of gussets on the block and the cars trim tag looked like a reproduction. The only picture of the front of the block showed glare where the gussets should be, making an clear interpretation impossible.

                      Comment

                      • Larry E.
                        Extremely Frequent Poster
                        • December 1, 1989
                        • 1652

                        #12
                        Re: Very Early 1966 427 blocks

                        Originally posted by Patrick Boyd (9110)
                        Larry- I have another potential interpretation of your photo. I may be F 6 5 rather than F 6 6 since the top of the last letter looks flat rather than curved. The information needed to be sure of the date is whether this block has the gussets over the timing chain cover. It appears that early 942 blocks had the gussets like early 961 and 962 blocks, but sometime early in the 66 model year all three block castings lost their gussets. So the 64 thousand dollar question (for us old enough to remember the first TV quiz show), Larry do you have any picture of front of the block or knowledge of its gussets status?

                        PATRICK>HAVE NO PICTURES SHOWING OR KNOWLEDGE OF GUSSETS ON THIS ENGINE. WHAT I DO REMEMBER(IIRC)
                        THIS WAS A TOP FLIGHT CAR JUDGED BY NCRS AND HAD A LATE VIN. I GOT TO BELIEVE THAT THE CASTING DATE IS F 6 6 RATHER THEN F 6 5 AS THIS WOULD NEVER PASS JUDGING. IMHO Believe my pictures go back into the
                        late 90's and early 2000's.

                        I am starting to think that neither 961 nor 962 blocks were used for early 427s. Maybe 942 blocks were made earlier than September and I had just never seen one. What would solve this mystery is proof of a block with gussets, a casting date of August or earlier, the 3869942 casting number and maybe a 66 Corvette stamping as icing on the cake.

                        Jack Morocco sent me some very tantalizing information and I hope he chimes in with the links he is so good at creating. One set of pictures he sent was for a block with a very original looking stamp of T0902IL for car #269. There is a picture of its gussets and its casting date of H 20 5, however there is no picture of it casting number. It could be 942 or 962, but I am leaning toward 942. Next he sent a link to BAT auction of 66 Corvette number 393. It showed a 942 block with a H 10 5 casting number. The stamping was T0816IL which looked pretty good but could be argued. What made the pictures less than a slam dunk was that there was no clear evidence of gussets on the block and the cars trim tag looked like a reproduction. The only picture of the front of the block showed glare where the gussets should be, making an clear interpretation impossible.
                        Patrick: Will make some comments under your comments above.
                        Larry

                        LT1 in a 1LE -- One of 134

                        Comment

                        • Jack M.
                          Extremely Frequent Poster
                          • March 1, 1991
                          • 1138

                          #13
                          Re: Very Early 1966 427 blocks

                          I'm posting several images I've recently shared with Pat... sorry for the poor quality on some of the various web downloads.

                          These images come from 194676S100393... there may be issues with the pad, and glare is too harsh to see any gussets, but we seem to have a 942 block, with a casting date of H 10 5.
                          T0816IL-6100393.jpg

                          T0816IL-6100393b.jpg

                          T0816IL-6100393c.jpg

                          T0816IL-6100393d.jpg

                          <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><><>

                          These images come from 194676S100269... it appears we have a GUSSETED block, with a casting date of H 20 5, but no block casting numbers.
                          T0902IL-6S100269.jpg

                          T0902IL-6S100269b.jpg

                          T0902IL-6S100269c.jpg

                          <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><><>

                          These images come from 194676S100401... we have ANOTHER casting date of H 20 5, and Al Grenning docs indicating the block was a 942.
                          T0903IL-6100401.jpg

                          T0903IL-6100401b.jpg

                          T0903IL-6100401c.jpg

                          Comment

                          • Patrick B.
                            Extremely Frequent Poster
                            • August 31, 1985
                            • 1986

                            #14
                            Re: Very Early 1966 427 blocks

                            Thanks Jack for providing these photos. The first 2 were the blocks I described in a previous post. I find the car #269 pretty authentic but the casting number was not known. I don't see any gussets in the car #393 block picture so I will not make any conclusion based on it.

                            But Jack has done some detective work in discovering the third block. This block in car #401 was also cast on H 20 5 same as the block in car #269. The build date stamp was T0903IL and the car received a Bloomington Gold award. The final piece if information was on the Al Greening inspection report. He reported the casting number of 3869942 with the casting date of H 20 5 and his opinion that the T0903IL stamp was original. There are no pictures of gussets, but we know that all other big blocks cast in August 1965 had gussets so there is no reason to believe that this well inspected block is any different.

                            I think we have proved that 942 blocks were cast in August 1965, and were available for early 66 427's. The idea of 961 blocks used for early 427's is a hox based on some bad data in Nolen Adam's book. One 961 block he reported was simply an early 66 Chevelle 396 complete with the Chevelle stamping. The other was stamped as an ultra rare M22 equipped IK code perhaps because the stamper thought that IK was for earlier engines than IP. At any rate, the 961 block had thin walls that would not have been sufficient for a factory 427. I must also discard my pet theory that thick wall 962 blocks were used as early 427s. They would have worked, but they were not needed because 942 blocks were being cast in August, soon enough for the early Sept engines found in early 66 cars.

                            Comment

                            • E S.
                              Very Frequent User
                              • December 29, 2008
                              • 451

                              #15
                              Re: Very Early 1966 427 blocks

                              Hi all -Kinda off the subject, but I am glad to see that CCAS,LLC has affirmed the "L" suffix on the stamp pad, even though it appears to be an "after" strike-( my T1019IP has a similar P "after" strike)
                              E.J.

                              Comment

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