Same old Ethanol question

[David K.]

[Duke W.]

Re: Same old Ethanol question

E10 is not likely to cause any problems IF you consume at least a full tank of fuel per year and the car is normally domiciled in a non-condensing humidity environment. Typical residential garages meet this requirement, and if you have 93 PON E10 both engines should tolerate it without detonation, but you may have to reduce total WOT advance to the lower end of the optimum range of 36-40, maybe even 34, especially if your highest available pump octane is less than 93.

Every engine is somewhat unique as are weather and driving conditions, so it takes some thoughtful experimentation and record keeping to determine the most aggressive spark advance map you can use if these engines have the original CR, but they probably don't. Most engines this old have been rebuilt at some point in their life and "lower compression" was typical.

They may even perform okay on 87 PON.

Duke

[Mark E.]

Re: Same old Ethanol question

Ethanol increases octane, so increased detonation shouldn't be an issue.

Just make sure all rubber fuel lines, and the carburetor gaskets and inlet needle are Ethanol compatible.

[David K.]

[Ed S.]

Re: Same old Ethanol question

When you park it in your garage try to have the tank as full as possible - reduce the air space in the tank. C2 fuel systems are vented - as the gas cools and warms up it expands and contracts in the tank, it will suck in ambient air, that has moisture in it. The moisture (H2O) in the air that gets into the tank will be absorbed by the alcohol. You don't need Paul Harvey to tell you the rest of the story.

[Terry D.]

Re: Same old Ethanol question

Lucas Oil makes a product that you add to your fuel that is suppose to help with the enthanol problem. Duke are you familiar with this product and what do you think? Good or just good marketing?

[Daniel S.]

Re: Same old Ethanol question

http://www.pure-gas.org/

[Duke W.]

Re: Same old Ethanol question

Ethanol increases octane, so increased detonation shouldn't be an issue.

Just make sure all rubber fuel lines, and the carburetor gaskets and inlet needle are Ethanol compatible.

Yes, ethanol increases octane, but the straight run gasoline produced by refineries is less than the final target octane of 87, 91, 92, or 93.

Because ethanol absorbs water it cannot be shipped in pipelines. Ethanol is delivered to distribution points by rail and "splashed" into tank trucks in amounts necessary to achieve the target final octane number, then delivered to the retailer. "Ethanol free" 91 is the straight run gasoline product, less the 10 percent ethanol that raises the PON to 93.

A product called "gasolhol" that contained 10 percent ethanol became available in a few parts of the country back in the early 80s, over 40 years ago. I recall trying some in a rental Camry on a business trip to the Northeast to see if there was any difference in operational characteristics, and there were no differences that I could detect.

Since that time fuel system elastomers have been formulated to tolerate E10 gasoline blends, so if you aren't sure that the elastomeric materials in your fuel system, especially rubber fuel hoses, are less than 40 years old, I highly recommend replacing them, especially C2/3 rubber hoses from the frame fuel pipe to the fuel pump inlet nipple, which, if ruptured, will allow the entire fuel tank contents to drain out.

Duke

[Duke W.]

Re: Same old Ethanol question

Thank you gents; I’m already adding octane race boost, which takes the 91 pump, up to somewhere around the 95-96 level im guessing. Drivability is not an issue at all. I have no idea what types of gaskets etc.; were used when the cars were restored (2007 and 2021 respectively). Not at all interested to take things apart to verify…..hence; since I’m obsessive compulsive; I’ll probably try to find a new source for “true gasoline “.
Thank you again. David

You didn't state the specific product you are using but increasing octane 4 to 5 points is a pipe dream. Most "points" claimed are 0.1, not 1.0. Have you ever done a real octane test?

Given the restoration dates all of your fuel system elastomeric materials should be formulated for E10.

Duke

[Duke W.]

Re: Same old Ethanol question

Lucas Oil makes a product that you add to your fuel that is suppose to help with the enthanol problem. Duke are you familiar with this product and what do you think? Good or just good marketing?

I don't know what product you are talking about, but I can tell you that I have been storing cars for 6 to 18 months over the last 30 years without using any supplemental additives like "fuel stabilizers" and have not had any fuel system problems that I could remotely blame on ethanol.

In addition, I have all spark advance maps optimized for available fuel octane in California, the highest of which is 91 PON E10.

IMO fuel system (and engine oil additives) are all snake oil, but guys see all the advertising hype and internet myths and misinformation and drink the Koolaid.

Duke

[Larry E.]

Re: Same old Ethanol question

Thank you gents; I’m already adding octane race boost, which takes the 91 pump, up to somewhere around the 95-96 level im guessing. Drivability is not an issue at all. I have no idea what types of gaskets etc.; were used when the cars were restored (2007 and 2021 respectively). Not at all interested to take things apart to verify…..hence; since I’m obsessive compulsive; I’ll probably try to find a new source for “true gasoline “.
Thank you again. David

David: I would do a search on this board as this has been discussed SO MANY TIMES; THEN MAKE YOUR Decision
on you next step. You are on the correct track when you said you will find "true gasoline" and not FALL FOR THE
"GIMMICKS" THAT SOME SUGGEST. What do I mean by "Gimmicks"> eg. changing timing and advance/head gaskets/
blending/mixing the bad gasoline with octane boosters and etc.. You do your research and find the BEST CURRENT AVAILABLE GASOLINE THAT COMES THE CLOSEST'S TO THE GASOLINE THAT WAS AVAILABLE AT THE TIME
CHEVROLET DESIGNED YOU ENGINES AND YOU WILL FIND STRAIGHT 1OOLL AV GAS IS THE ONLY ANSWER.JMHO
Larry P.S. If/when you will test run your engines with pure av gas your "Definition of Drivability" will change.

Benefits of AVgas

For Paramotoring and Powered Paragliding
by Mo Sheldon, April, 2004

To begin with, the issues of which fuel or oil to use is a very controversial topic with strong opinions and few clear cut answers. I will try to show why I and many motor gurus prefer using AVgas over pump gas.
Essentially our two stroke PPG engines are basically glorified lawn mower engines. And countless lawn mower engines have run just fine with whatever gas and oil is put in them. However, all engines will run better and last longer if you take care of them, including using fresh supplies of quality oil and fuel. Considering the amount of horses we get out of PPG engines, tolerances are more critical and reliability is a very real issue. It makes sense to put the highest quality oil and fuels in your flying machines as a cheap way to increase the reliability and durability of your two stroke engine.
Below are a bunch of differences between pump gas and AVgas: AVgas smells a whole lot better than pump gas (you will appreciate this if you inevitably spill it inside your vehicle or on your hands).

• AVgas is refined to a much higher standard than pump gas.
• AVgas is much cleaner than pump gas.
• AVgas tends to burn smoother than pump gas(probably because it is 100 octane)
• AVgas has some lead in it which is a lubricant (two stroke engines burn hotter and that extra lubrication can mean the difference between a running engine and a seized one. Also, with better heat dissipation, the engine running on AVgas may last a whole lot longer
• AVgas is the same whether you buy it in California, Alaska or Arizona. Pump gas is different from city to city and season to season.
• AVgas has a blue tint to it for easy viewing in a clear tank. Pump gas is a clear translucent.
• AVgas has a MUCH longer shelf life of several months compared to several weeks with pump gas.
• AVgas will not gum up if left for a long periods (The gumming of pump gas is from all the additives gone bad. AVgas has none of these additives)
• AVgas is an excellent cleaner.
• AVgas costs a little more than pump gas
• .

[Rich G.]

[Duke W.]

Re: Same old Ethanol question

Benefits of AVgas

For Paramotoring and Powered Paragliding
by Mo Sheldon, April, 2004

To begin with, the issues of which fuel or oil to use is a very controversial topic with strong opinions and few clear cut answers. I will try to show why I and many motor gurus prefer using AVgas over pump gas.
Essentially our two stroke PPG engines are basically glorified lawn mower engines. And countless lawn mower engines have run just fine with whatever gas and oil is put in them. However, all engines will run better and last longer if you take care of them, including using fresh supplies of quality oil and fuel. Considering the amount of horses we get out of PPG engines, tolerances are more critical and reliability is a very real issue. It makes sense to put the highest quality oil and fuels in your flying machines as a cheap way to increase the reliability and durability of your two stroke engine.
Below are a bunch of differences between pump gas and AVgas: AVgas smells a whole lot better than pump gas (you will appreciate this if you inevitably spill it inside your vehicle or on your hands).

• AVgas is refined to a much higher standard than pump gas.
• AVgas is much cleaner than pump gas.
• AVgas tends to burn smoother than pump gas(probably because it is 100 octane)
• AVgas has some lead in it which is a lubricant (two stroke engines burn hotter and that extra lubrication can mean the difference between a running engine and a seized one. Also, with better heat dissipation, the engine running on AVgas may last a whole lot longer
• AVgas is the same whether you buy it in California, Alaska or Arizona. Pump gas is different from city to city and season to season.
• AVgas has a blue tint to it for easy viewing in a clear tank. Pump gas is a clear translucent.
• AVgas has a MUCH longer shelf life of several months compared to several weeks with pump gas.
• AVgas will not gum up if left for a long periods (The gumming of pump gas is from all the additives gone bad. AVgas has none of these additives)
• AVgas is an excellent cleaner.
• AVgas costs a little more than pump gas
• .

Most of the above "points" are nonsense.

Duke

[Duke W.]

Re: Same old Ethanol question

And, anecdotally, Avgas will not dissolve the internals of your 60 year old Carter Carbs on your 1963 Corvair like pump gas did (or didn’t)  to mine. I’m running Avgas 100% in that and the 66 L79. We shall see. The cars are in my airplane hangar so access to 100LL is not the issue. Access to the money to buy it is becoming one.

Doncha think that any fuel system elastomer that's been in service for 60 years might be a little suspicious regardless of the type of gasoline it's been exposed to?

Duke

[Jim L.]

Re: Same old Ethanol question

A product called "gasolhol" that contained 10 percent ethanol became available in a few parts of the country back in the early 80s, over 40 years ago. I recall trying some in a rental Camry on a business trip to the Northeast to see if there was any difference in operational characteristics, and there were no differences that I could detect.

When "gasohol" was introduced here in the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia back in the '80s, I was keeping meticulous fuel economy records for my S10 Blazer with the puny 2.8L V6. I calculated an immediate and verifiable 2 MPG reduction in fuel economy without a commensurate reduction in fuel cost.