Yes, if not factory installed it will be a CE block. I have a a'72 Pewter silver LS5 built in October '71. Block is a replacement CE block dated June of '72, within the warranty period. Carburator also a June (ish, I don't remember exactly) '72 service replacement but ALL other cast Iron parts and transmission (correct vin) are dated prior to the build date. I ASSUME that the block and carb were replaced under warranty but there is no way to document it. Good luck!
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What you call an ID card (Generally referred to a Protect-o-plate or PoP) shows the engine assembly stamp as V1124CDH. That date (November 24th) is more in line with what one would expect. A picture of what is in the car (close up of the stamp pad) would be useful.
I agree with Tom L's post regarding the CE engine.
It is remotely possible that a replacement engine may have been installed at St Louis, but I would expect the PoP to show that engine data in that case. Again, a good quality close up image of the stamp pad would help.TerryComment
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Hi Gary
appreciate that
yes thought I’d check there first
seems it’s off the radar, so owners maybe were not club members
have a great weekend
cheers
stu👍Comment
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I have no experience in this, but I doubt a CE engine would have been installed at St Louis. If a replacement engine was required at ST Louis I expect they would have pulled one from their supply of engines.
CE engines were for dealer replacement, or over the counter sales. I believe there were some circumstances where engines with an engine assembly stamp were sold through the Service parts system, but those were few and far between.TerryComment
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Guys, I'm not exactly following this.
If I'm reading this right, the Body Build Date (which I haven't seen, or possibly missed it in the string) was either late December 1971 or early January 1972
The Protect-o-Plate (PoP) with matching VIN shows the engine assembly stamp as V1124CDH (Nov 24th 1971)
Even assuming the engine was replaced for some reason at St. Louis, how could it be an engine (V0215CDH Feb 1972 ?) that was 7-8 weeks or so away from even being built; followed by a few day truck or rail trip after that from Flint to St. Louis ?
Terry, I've not read anywhere that St. Louis inventoried spare engines w/ correct suffixes; and I know you toured the plant at one time; but, do you think they’d let a car sit around close to 2 months waiting for a replacement engine ?
Also, if they knew at the factory the engine was shot, wouldn’t they just ship it to the dealer (winch it on to the car transport trailer) and have them install the CE engine at the dealership (w/ a warranty credit, of course) ?
Looks like the car was not actually sold until June, so it sat on someone’s lot for a while anyhow.
The mystery continues, eh ?
thx,
MarkComment
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Until someone actually puts eyes on the car and checks the numbers, we don't have any useful answers.
I'll go back to my post #13:
I think that you will need pictures of the block stamp, block date code, and certification label in the door to be able to determine much more about this car.
Either it has the original engine and someone made a mistake writing them down, or it received the engine from a different car once it left the factory.
Vice-Chairman (West), Michigan Chapter NCRS
71 "deer modified" coupe
72 5-Star Bowtie / Duntov coupe. https://www.flickr.com/photos/124695...57649252735124
2008 coupe
Available stickers: Engine suffix code, exhaust tips & mufflers, shocks, AIR diverter valve broadcast code.Comment
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Mark, St Louis didn't inventory spare engines, but given the continuation of the model year production they would have had engines on hand for that continuing production. It would be most unusual for a car to be held two months for repair, but I am aware of one car that met that situation. That situation was for body damage and not engine related issues. It also involved an unusual option combination and unusual body damage.
There was a repair area at St Louis (and is at Bowling Green) for the repair of functions that didn't work as the cars were assembled and tested off the line. This repair area included replacement of non-functioning engines. The failed engine(s) were returned to the engine assembly plant for credit. The engine assembly plants had a "heavy repair" area that repaired, disassembled for parts, and/or scrapped unusable parts as necessary.
St Louis did not ship cars with non-functioning engines to dealers. If the engine failed during transport it became the dealer's responsibility to repair, but failures off the line were repaired in the plant. St Louis shipped functioning (at least in major details) automobiles. Minor function details may have escaped the auditors. I have been involved in repair of some of those minor details for those seeking a successful PV.
The bottom line, however, is that engine failures at St Louis were uncommon. After all the, engines were "hot fired" using Natural gas at the engine assembly plants. It was, however, not impossible for marginal engines to leave the engine assembly plant only to fail at St Louis. It did happen on rare occasions.
I believe in the case of an engine replacement on the repair line at St Louis the Prect-o-Plate would show that new engine Assembly information, but I am not entirely sure of that. I expect at the end of April I will see a former St Louis Auditor and I have plans to bring this situation to his attention. I will report the results of that conversation here.
I have other suspicions and that is why I asked for a good high resolution photo of the engine stamp pad that is the subject of this discussion. A survey of the cylinder case number and date would also be enlightening. Doing the usual due diligence is important and should not be ignored in our efforts to determine how circumstances might line up to explain an unusual situation. To be blunt -- a restamp is far more likely than a replacement engine at St Louis.TerryComment
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Terry,
Thanks very much for your detailed response !
As you know, I have worked in a few engine plants and many assembly plants; as well as foundries; etc....
So, I can't wait for what your friend can bring to this situation...
thx,
MarkComment
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Earlier I told Mark F that I would verify my above post with a former ST Louis employee when I visited The Corvette Museum this past week. I was able to do that.
Mark, St Louis didn't inventory spare engines, but given the continuation of the model year production they would have had engines on hand for that continuing production. It would be most unusual for a car to be held two months for repair, but I am aware of one car that met that situation. That situation was for body damage and not engine related issues. It also involved an unusual option combination and unusual body damage.
There was a repair area at St Louis (and is at Bowling Green) for the repair of functions that didn't work as the cars were assembled and tested off the line. This repair area included replacement of non-functioning engines. The failed engine(s) were returned to the engine assembly plant for credit. The engine assembly plants had a "heavy repair" area that repaired, disassembled for parts, and/or scrapped unusable parts as necessary.
St Louis did not ship cars with non-functioning engines to dealers. If the engine failed during transport it became the dealer's responsibility to repair, but failures off the line were repaired in the plant. St Louis shipped functioning (at least in major details) automobiles. Minor function details may have escaped the auditors. I have been involved in repair of some of those minor details for those seeking a successful PV.
The bottom line, however, is that engine failures at St Louis were uncommon. After all the, engines were "hot fired" using Natural gas at the engine assembly plants. It was, however, not impossible for marginal engines to leave the engine assembly plant only to fail at St Louis. It did happen on rare occasions.
I believe in the case of an engine replacement on the repair line at St Louis the Prect-o-Plate would show that new engine Assembly information, but I am not entirely sure of that. I expect at the end of April I will see a former St Louis Auditor and I have plans to bring this situation to his attention. I will report the results of that conversation here.
I have other suspicions and that is why I asked for a good high resolution photo of the engine stamp pad that is the subject of this discussion. A survey of the cylinder case number and date would also be enlightening. Doing the usual due diligence is important and should not be ignored in our efforts to determine how circumstances might line up to explain an unusual situation. To be blunt -- a restamp is far more likely than a replacement engine at St Louis.
My friend stated that engine failures were "not that uncommon." (A different statement than mine above.) He specifically sighted coolant leakage from the motor mount bolts at the attachment to the cylinder case as a constant problem with either BB or SB.
or a time he worked at the toe setting point. This was done in a pit after car was driven off the line and through the roll test. (He said that is unlike today where the front toe is set before roll test.) At this point the engine and exhaust were hot making that job unpleasant. Part of that job in the pit, in addition to setting the front toe, was to inspect with a flashlight the radiator underside, radiator hoses, water pump bottom, engine mounts and lower engine for coolant leaks. He said it was not uncommon to find leaks at the engine mount attaching points due to the threaded holes in the cylinder case being drilled too far and hitting the water jacket. (I would add: it could be the cylinder case core shifting and allowing the coolant passages to be too close to the case wall.) This was so common that he, and others, wore a raincoat and rain hat on that job.
If (in the repair area) they could stuff "dum dum" into the threaded hole to minimize the leak, the car would be shipped with that engine. All cars received what he called "crushed dog turds" in the radiator in order to plug minimal coolant leakage. If this "dum dum" "repair" was not successful the engine would be pulled and a replacement from stock would be installed. The failed engine would then be returned to the engine plant for credit and repair at the engine plant. He further said that they always had engines on hand. "They were all over the place. Stuffed everywhere."
I was told by people at Tonawanda, when I toured there, that they shipped 10% more engines to the assembly plants than their engine order was. That 10% "overage" was to cover returns.
In relation to the original post here, he did say that it would be unlikely for a car to be around for several months as there was not room to store cars in the building. Although there was room outside, moving the cars back into the building was problematic. The above repair process went "quickly" in his words. He further said that they had no CE engines in the assembly plant.
He additionally said they had no employees with the ability to repair engines at St Louis. One individual (who he gave me contact information for) might, in specific unusual circumstances, replace an intake manifold, but that was the limit of what they could do. He said they could R&R an engine swiftly. Of course I am sure they had all the tools and equipment at hand to make that task far easier than those of us even with a well equipped shop.
I enjoyed the opportunity to chat with him. It was all too short for both of us because we had other plans for the brief time we had together. He loves talking about his work in the automotive industry. For me it reminds me of the times I spent with two St Louis employees at Bloomington in the last century. I thank you for instigating the chance for me to do that again. I will try to do more of that on Labor Day.TerryComment
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Hi Terry,
Thank you so much for updating us on your chats with your friend !
Wow…real eye-openers for me…
To make my comments and questions easier to follow, I just copied out your last post and inserted my comments and questions in there rather than using the “quote” button response option (see below highlighted).
Take care and I can’t wait for more of your updates…your extracted post follows:
…“My friend stated that engine failures were "not that uncommon." (A different statement than mine above.) He specifically sighted coolant leakage from the motor mount bolts at the attachment to the cylinder case as a constant problem with either BB or SB.
For a time he worked at the toe setting point. This was done in a pit after car was driven off the line and through the roll test. Huh, very odd – why would you take a car up to 60mph on the roll test and rough road equipment without having the front end aligned ? kinda dangerous IMO. (He said that is unlike today where the front toe is set before roll test.) At this point the engine and exhaust were hot making that job unpleasant. I’ve been in several of those pits for multiple 8-hour shifts (not GM) – and I assure you it’s unpleasant (crowded even w/ only one person there; noisy; smelly; hot depending upon the time of year – not to mention what he said about a hot engine inches above your head ! Part of that job in the pit, in addition to setting the front toe, was to inspect with a flashlight the radiator underside, radiator hoses, water pump bottom, engine mounts and lower engine for coolant leaks. He said it was not uncommon to find leaks at the engine mount attaching points due to the threaded holes in the cylinder case being drilled too far and hitting the water jacket. (I would add: it could be the cylinder case core shifting and allowing the coolant passages to be too close to the case wall.) This was so common that he, and others, wore a raincoat and rain hat on that job. WOW, hot coolant dripping down on you ? As you know, Terry, core shifting and/or failure in the Foundry was obviously watched carefully, but maybe not so in those days ? Also as you know, core setting is (or should be) precise line job stations at the foundry (casting plants). Chaplets are used to control the distances between what is supposed to be metal and what is supposed to be “void space” (water passages; cylinder bores; oil passages; etc. which the “cores” provide if properly placed and stay intact). I have a few of these in my collection and would post a picture but can’t locate them right now. A couple of links are provided here for those interested in reading about them and how they work (or don’t):
https://old.foundrygate.com/upload/artigos/Chaplets%20-%20useful%20but%20Potential%20Trouble%20Sources.pd f
https://www.mechgrace.com/2023/05/chaplet-in-casting.html#:~:text=What%20is%20chaplet%20in%20ca sting,element%20to%20support%20the%20core.
If (in the repair area) they could stuff "dum dum" into the threaded hole to minimize the leak, the car would be shipped with that engine. All cars received what he called "crushed dog turds" in the radiator in order to plug minimal coolant leakage. If this "dum dum" "repair" was not successful the engine would be pulled and a replacement from stock would be installed. The failed engine would then be returned to the engine plant for credit and repair at the engine plant. If the core shifted and the bolts go all the way thru to a cavity, not sure how Tonawanda or Flint could “repair” that kind of defect when returned. He further said that they always had engines on hand. "They were all over the place. Stuffed everywhere." OK…more fuel for the fire on “shipped” Corvettes with odd Pad vs VIN correlations, eh ?
I was told by people at Tonawanda, when I toured there, that they shipped 10% more engines to the assembly plants than their engine order was. That 10% "overage" was to cover returns. Another WOW 😊…and who cares what I think, but I’m totally unimpressed at 10% anticipated failures YIKES ! Sounds like GM had no concept of root cause analysis. Find the problem and fix the problem – don’t ignore it by over-supplying and hoping you get a “non-leaker” all the way at THE END OF THE LINE when the car needs to be shipped !…'was this also what happened with engines at all the other Chevrolet product lines?…nuff said there...
In relation to the original post here, he did say that it would be unlikely for a car to be around for several months as there was not room to store cars in the building. Although there was room outside, moving the cars back into the building was problematic. The above repair process went "quickly" in his words. He further said that they had no CE engines in the assembly plant. Very interesting.
He additionally said they had no employees with the ability to repair engines at St Louis. One individual (who he gave me contact information for) might, in specific unusual circumstances, replace an intake manifold, but that was the limit of what they could do. He said they could R&R an engine swiftly. Of course I am sure they had all the tools and equipment at hand to make that task far easier than those of us even with a well equipped shop.
I enjoyed the opportunity to chat with him. I’ll bet ! It was all too short for both of us because we had other plans for the brief time we had together. He loves talking about his work in the automotive industry. I also enjoyed my time and work there (auto industry) as well. For me it reminds me of the times I spent with two St Louis employees at Bloomington in the last century. I thank you for instigating the chance for me to do that again. I will try to do more of that on Labor Day. Can’t wait, Terry ! ”
thx,
MarkComment
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Mark
I don't know how to do all that fancy insert stuff, so I'll address your questions as best I can here.
My understanding of the roll test in those days, based on conversations with John Hinckley and two other St Louis employes back in the 1980s, was that only the rear wheels moved on the roll test. If we discussed what they measured I have forgotten that, but I am sure it was very much more primitive than today's computer controlled itemized measurements. I assumed it was somewhat like a chassis dynamometer, but that was long ago for both me and those events.
On a marginally aligned issue: One part of one of the presentations at the Corvette Museum last week was about the engine build center in the Assembly plant in Bowling Green. They do not hot test the newly built engines. They turn them over using electric motors and measure hundreds of perimeters to determine that the engine parameters meet expected values. Not only are these values measured and recorded, but they must pass all the measured values, as monitored by computer, before the engine is allowed to exit the build facility. The presenter, the current plant manager, said if the engine isn't given the green light it goes back for adjustment or repair. When asked he said he didn't know how many failed the initial test, but did say that generally it was very few.
I have toured what is now called the Saginaw Metal Foundry where all the small block cylinder cases for Corvette were cast. (Well almost all SB cylinder cases, but that is another long, and unrelated to this post, story.) I have never understood the cope and drag terminology or their relationship. Perhaps it is my inability to think in three dimensions, or just simply my mental failings. I do however remember in my youth that those individuals who wanted maximum bore from there cylinder cases were supposed to have the cylinder walls sonic tested to be sure that core shift didn't make the cylinder walls too thin for the maximum displacement. So the Hot Rod aftermarket thinking back then was that there was potential, without respect to any particular car maker, for this issue to arise. How common it may have been, I have no idea.
I can't tell you if the 10% overage I got from Tonawanda was for all assembly plant engine orders or if only St Louis. On the visit I was guided by a person with whom I had had extensive written and telephone conversations (no internet in those days) with about Corvette engine production. While he was not a fan of Corvettes (he candidly told me he thought all us NCRS people were nuts. LOL) but he respected our enthusiasm enough to offer me the tour opportunity. I wrote a story for The Restorer about that tour, but I would have to rely on Vinnie to pull it from the old files.
Thanks for the links. Controlling the core was obviously a necessary detail. How effective those efforts were in the late 1960s when my friend worked at ST Louis, I just don't know. The core shift suggestion was mine. In his comments he mentioned that the threaded hole was drilled too deep. Perhaps it was my mistake to offer other possible explanations based on my memories from my youth.
I hope I covered all your questions. I do appreciate your comments based on your industry experiences. You have been much closer to field conditions than I have, so I really love to hear your comments. I know that it really doesn't matter what the name of the car manufacturer was, cars are, for the most part, built the same regardless of the badge on the car. However, one of the issues we face is that the technology of automotive production has changed incrementally each year and dramatically over the years. As Tom R said in another of the posts on this thread, the build process is dynamic. In the current plant managers presentation, at Bowling Green, he said the same thing using almost exactly the same words. Except he was referring to his assembly plant production over the last year (since his previous update on assembly plant process) and our perspective is very much farther back than his.
Any more questions and I will try to answer them as best I can. If I need to, I will enjoy asking either the former ST Louis employee or the current plant manager as need be. You have given me the chance to explore new to me paths while those paths are still available. Thank you again.TerryComment
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Excellent Report For Sure. Always like these "Historical Facts". Thanks Much>Terry M.--LarryLarry
LT1 in a 1LE -- One of 134Comment
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Terry,
Thank you for your kind words…I appreciate it.
“I wrote a story for The Restorer about that tour, but I would have to rely on Vinnie to pull it from the old files.”
Your article is in Vol. 18 #3 Winter 1992…excellent read with excellent photos BTW.
The 1980 “Casting a Cylinder Block” link below provides a good sequential overview of how a block is cast, including a good discussion of the cope and drag molds – as well as what follows. It’s 20 minutes long, but well worth watching IMO.
Some highlights marked by time into the video follow:
around 2” or so starts the core making process
~5” mixer/muller for sand composition and preparation is followed by the cope and drag loading discussions
@ 7” to 8” you can see the voids between the cores and the sand where the metal will flow and solidify for the case
~12” mold pouring. This is much less automated than what I saw (hand pouring vs machine-operated), but the concepts of how the metal gets into the mold are the same
~12:35 cope and drag separation
~13:28 shakeout table – LOUD; hot; and dirty !
~14” runner knockout
~14:30 Fettling station
~15” Shot blasting
~17” head facing milling
~19” registration holes for down-line machining operations
Also, re-thinking about the Roll-Test 1st then to Toe-in 2nd sequence, I suppose one advantage of doing it that way might be various front-end suspension components could "settle-in" (get jounced ?) as the wheels were first rotated up to 60 mph. Here’s what John H. had in his C2 Assembly Process Presentation (available in the Database of Restoration Documents [DoRD] Sticky Post)…RTTI Roll Test (RT) and Toe-In (TI): RT-1 Driver locates car in the roll-test machine and pushes button on pedestal to start machine cycle; front and rear car-width rollers rise up so all four wheels are on the rollers, and driver accelerates. Rear wheels drive the rear roller, which in turn drives the front roller so all four wheels turn at the same speed. The left side of the rollers are smooth, and the right sides have raised sections to simulate a bumpy road. RT-2 Driver accelerates through the gears to 60 mph, listening for any unusual noises, and compares speedo reading to the machine’s overhead speedo dial to ensure correct speedo gear is installed. Driver slows to 30 mph and exercises lights, wipers and washers, radio, turn signals, horn, hazards, and moves over to the “rough road” side of the rollers to check for vibration, squeaks and rattles. RT-3 Driver moves back to the smooth-road side of the rollers, accelerates to 60 mph, and applies parking brake several times to “burnish” the shoes prior to final cable adjustment. Driver then slows to a stop on the rollers and pushes the button on the pedestal; the rollers retract and the driver proceeds into the toe-in machine. TI-1 Car is driven into the Toe-In machine and driver attaches steering wheel lock/level tool to wheel and top of door. Pit operator cycles machine, which moves locating rollers on floating heads against inside and outside of tires and machine spins the front wheels. TI-2 Watching dials on his control panels, pit operator turns tie rod adjusting sleeves until dials indicate that toe-in is within specifications while steering wheel is held level and straight-ahead; he then positions tie rod clamps correctly and tightens clamp bolts with an air tool and a wrench. Driver removes steering wheel tool, hangs it on pedestal, and proceeds into Final Process Repair for any needed adjustments.
thx,
MarkComment
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