Fight Judging Question

[Jack C.]

I'm registered for the NJ Chapter meet in September. My 68 is borderline Bowtie but maybe not quite how I view it to be but want to have it Flight Judged. The car is at least 75-80% original. Will what keeps it closer to the Bowtie category hurt me in the Flight Judging category?

I was advised that I have a good chance of a Survivior certificate based on the criteria from a very good source who inspected the car. Your thoughts please.

Flight Judging......I need a new keyboard

[Patrick H.]

Re: Fight Judging Question

Jack,

You can clean, and it will not hurt any Bowtie chances. Clean gently, though.

You can replace non-factory items (replaced hoses, belts, etc) with repros if you wish, and that won't hurt your Bowtie chances, and may help you Flight.

Beyond that, don't do anything. You can always do stuff later, once your car has been reviewed for Bowtie candidacy.

In my eyes, Survivor is OK but expensive. And, a Survivor award doesn't mean you'll qualify or get a Bowtie. I recently inspected a car that passed all 4 Survivor areas, but I don't think it would get a Bowtie Award. The qualifications are different.

Patrick

[Dave S.]

Re: Fight Judging Question

Jack,
If you think your car is 75%-80% original you will achieve Bloomington Survivor easily. The criteria for Bloomington Survivor is 50%. Bowtie is another story where the criteria is 80% -85% and the car needs around 80% of its original paint to get the exterior star. Refer to the Judging Guide for a more exact explanation. There can be a fine line between Bowtie judging and flight judging in some areas. You do not want to compromise originality to enhance the condition points you get.

[Jack C.]

Re: Flight Judging Question

I Top Flighted a 71 LT1 at the NJ Regional in 2001 and have now had the 68 for almost five years and would like to do the same. I have poured over the TIMJG for quite sometime. The paint is 100% original and the interior only had the drivers seat recovered. The comsumables have been changed with all the right stuff and still have chalk marks and the like still intact. The only thing that I changed was the water pump, which I painted and did the overspray on the bypass hose as per spec..

[Harmon C.]

Re: Flight Judging Question

If you are correct that the car is 75-80% original the car will be right at the cut off. If you get the Bowtie award NCRS wants you to leave the car in that condition and diplay it at meets. In the end you needed to decide if you like the car as it is now and want to keep it as is or you want a restored Duntov car. I have prepared cars for both Bowtie and Duntov and it takes me longer to clean a Bowtie car than to restore the parts for a Duntov.It takes forever on a lift to clean the chassis. A flight judging at a chapter meet with just cleaning should get you the information you need.

[Jack C.]

Re: Fight Judging Question

Thanks folks. I'll keep you posted.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Fight Judging Question

Jack,

My 5 Star Bowtie car has had the water pump replaced, as well as some of the "consumables." I'd go for it.

Patrick

[Kevin G.]

Re: Flight Judging Question

In the end you needed to decide if you like the car as it is now and want to keep it as is or you want a restored Duntov car.

Lyle, Not all Duntov's are restored!


Jack,
Your headed in the right direction by starting at the Chapter level. There will be some very knowledgable judges at the NJ meet that will be able to help you. Also, you have done yourself a great service by having someone that knows look at the car already. As directed above clean gently only, no one will be fooled if things are out of order. If the car really is original, the area that will hurt the most will more then likely be condition. But who knows you might have a Bowtie/Duntov car.

Good luck, I'll look forward to seeing your car!
Kevin

[Jack H.]

Re: Flight Judging Question

Hum, we need to talk about some things here....

We have basically two award recognition categories: restored cars/Flight, and unrestored cars/Star-Bowtie. The criteria are VERY different and often the owner is on the horns of a dilema in deciding which way to take his/her vehicle.

The yardstick for restored cars is how that car was delivered to the original owner sans any owner/dealer inspired additions/deletions. That means an older car that's been used/driven is going to be at a disadvantage when it's placed in the restored car category for judging...

The yardstick for unrestored cars (Star-Bowtie) is the originality aspect of THAT specific car. Condition doesn't count and the car doesn't even have to start/run!

So, when folks embark on a path to try and have their cake and eat it too (freshen up this/that, make this/that actually work, insure the car can be safely driven), they enter the twilight zone of hurting the car's chances for top awards in the unrestored category to improve the car's chances for top awards in the restored category.

Bloomington is a different animal. In addition to the lower 'cut line' (50% vs. 80-85%), they ask their Survivor cars to sucessfully complete a road course with the motto being 'worn in, but not, worn out'.

In many areas you can't have it both ways! If the car is truly original, expect this/that NOT to work any longer. When you go to repair this/that so you can actually drive/use the car (like overhauling the water pump), you're going to leave 'tell tale' evidence that this/that has been changed (E.g. wench marks on the attaching bolts, fresh new mounting gaskets that lack the factory original aged Chevy orange overspray) and that action CAN hurt you during Star/Bowtie judging...

If you're truly serious about pursuing top honors in the NCRS unrestored award category, the addage is: "Don't touch anything--simply clean the car gently and see how it fares." Bowtie cars are 'discovered' and not 'built'....

Now, I've seen a handful of cars that truly qualified for top honors in both the restored and unrestored categories, but they were often the unusual case of the original owner purchasing the vehicle and doing little/no driving of it.... For a Corvette that's a RARE happenstance.

[Harmon C.]

Re: Flight Judging Question

[quote=Kevin Goodman (43429);358217]Lyle, Not all Duntov's are restored

I owned a five star Bowtie car that had the Duntov but the number that have done both is small. I also did a Founders with that car. I also drove 3500 miles to a national convention and got the longest driven, Sam Foltz and a Duntov with a restored car.A 97 is not easy to get restored,unrestored or a mix on the same car.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Flight Judging Question

Hum, we need to talk about some things here....

We have basically two award recognition categories: restored cars/Flight, and unrestored cars/Star-Bowtie. The criteria are VERY different and often the owner is on the horns of a dilema in deciding which way to take his/her vehicle.

The yardstick for restored cars is how that car was delivered to the original owner sans any owner/dealer inspired additions/deletions. That means an older car that's been used/driven is going to be at a disadvantage when it's placed in the restored car category for judging...

The yardstick for unrestored cars (Star-Bowtie) is the originality aspect of THAT specific car. Condition doesn't count and the car doesn't even have to start/run!

So, when folks embark on a path to try and have their cake and eat it too (freshen up this/that, make this/that actually work, insure the car can be safely driven), they enter the twilight zone of hurting the car's chances for top awards in the unrestored category to improve the car's chances for top awards in the restored category.

Bloomington is a different animal. In addition to the lower 'cut line' (50% vs. 80-85%), they ask their Survivor cars to sucessfully complete a road course with the motto being 'worn in, but not, worn out'.

In many areas you can't have it both ways! If the car is truly original, expect this/that NOT to work any longer. When you go to repair this/that so you can actually drive/use the car (like overhauling the water pump), you're going to leave 'tell tale' evidence that this/that has been changed (E.g. wench marks on the attaching bolts, fresh new mounting gaskets that lack the factory original aged Chevy orange overspray) and that action CAN hurt you during Star/Bowtie judging...

If you're truly serious about pursuing top honors in the NCRS unrestored award category, the addage is: "Don't touch anything--simply clean the car gently and see how it fares." Bowtie cars are 'discovered' and not 'built'....

Now, I've seen a handful of cars that truly qualified for top honors in both the restored and unrestored categories, but they were often the unusual case of the original owner purchasing the vehicle and doing little/no driving of it.... For a Corvette that's a RARE happenstance.

After all of the above...

Bowtie/Second Flight - not tough to do.
Bowtie/Top Flight - tough but definitely not impossible. My car fits here.
Bowtie/Duntov - very difficult. Yes, they exist (I've seen several), but they're not common. As Jack notes, they're usually low mileage originals that keep many of their Condition points in Flight judging.

One caveat no matter what category of judging - the more options a car has, the more areas to lose points. On a very low option car like mine, the free points from not having AC, PS, etc are a definite bonus in all types of judging.

FYI, I drove my 72 to its Regional in 2003 and to the National in 2004 for Bowtie Judging. It can be done! See it on display in the NCRS Gallery at Carlisle this year.

Patrick

[Jack C.]

Re: Fight Judging Question

Thanks for everyones input. I'll shoot for Flight Judging for now and take the advice from the Judges.

[Kevin G.]

Re: Flight Judging Question

[quote=Lyle Chamberlain (24961);358229]

Lyle, Not all Duntov's are restored

I owned a five star Bowtie car that had the Duntov but the number that have done both is small. I also did a Founders with that car. I also drove 3500 miles to a national convention and got the longest driven, Sam Foltz and a Duntov with a restored car.A 97 is not easy to get restored,unrestored or a mix on the same car.

Lyle, Truely an amazing accomplishment, you must be very proud! I am on the same road, my requirements for the fifth star are behind me, and my article for the Restorer is finished and really to be submitted. Now that Foltz Award is another thing/issue! What year was your car? Do you still own it, very neat!

After all of the above...

Bowtie/Second Flight - not tough to do.
Bowtie/Top Flight - tough but definitely not impossible. My car fits here.
Bowtie/Duntov - very difficult. Yes, they exist (I've seen several), but they're not common. As Jack notes, they're usually low mileage originals that keep many of their Condition points in Flight judging.

One caveat no matter what category of judging - the more options a car has, the more areas to lose points. On a very low option car like mine, the free points from not having AC, PS, etc are a definite bonus in all types of judging.

FYI, I drove my 72 to its Regional in 2003 and to the National in 2004 for Bowtie Judging. It can be done! See it on display in the NCRS Gallery at Carlisle this year.

Patrick

Patrick,
I'd like to know exactly how many Bowtie/Duntov cars are there? Yes, my car is a LOW mileage example, that was taken great care of. I also did benefit by having a low optioned car.

Congratulations on your invitation to the Gallery, Elaine/Frank couldn't have chosen a better example!

Jack,
I don't see the comparison between Bloomington Survivor and Bowtie/Duntov? Besides the percent of originality differences, the road trip at Bloomington doesn't add up to a PV plus the 10 mile road course and three 97% needed for the Duntov? Thoughts?

Kevin

[Jack C.]

Re: Flight Judging Question

[quote=Kevin Goodman (43429);358311]

Lyle, Truely an amazing accomplishment, you must be very proud! I am on the same road, my requirements for the fifth star are behind me, and my article for the Restorer is finished and really to be submitted. Now that Foltz Award is another thing/issue! What year was your car? Do you still own it, very neat!

Patrick,
I'd like to know exactly how many Bowtie/Duntov cars are there? Yes, my car is a LOW mileage example, that was taken great care of. I also did benefit by having a low optioned car.

Congratulations on your invitation to the Gallery, Elaine/Frank couldn't have chosen a better example!

Jack,
I don't see the comparison between Bloomington Survivor and Bowtie/Duntov? Besides the percent of originality differences, the road trip at Bloomington doesn't add up to a PV plus the 10 mile road course and three 97% needed for the Duntov? Thoughts?

Kevin

Kevin, as far as Flight Judging goes, I think I'm ready. The intent of the orginal note was to see where I stand in that certification since I didn't restore nearly anything on the car and it is not the best in condition, be it quite original. I hope that the Chapter judges could offer some advice. Not ever thinking I had a Bowtie candidate but concerned that I wouldn't do well in the Flight judging because I didn't pretty thing up and left them mostly alone.

[Harmon C.]

Re: Flight Judging Question

Kevin
After owning the Bowtie car and getting the awards and displaying it a few times it just sat in the garage covered up for years. When I had visitors and showed them the car they always asked when will you restore this and make it perfect like your other cars. Only NCRS people understand why we own thease cars. I needed the space so I sold the 73 two top convertible at the Bloomington auction to a dealer and have not seen or was contacted by the new owner and their was lots of paperwork that went with it with contact information. I have thought someone must have bought it for a driver. Good luck with the Founders it's lots of fun.