R-89W versus R-89S Battery

[Paul C.]

I have a 71 350. Which battery do I need for judging? What is the difference between the R-89W & the R-89S from restoration battery--they look exactly the same--but someone said there is a point deduction for R-89S. Can someone please explain?

Thanks Paul

[Lyndon S.]

Re: R-89W versus R-89S Battery

R89-W was a option on all corvettes but was standard on big block so you could use either one.

[Terry M.]

Re: R-89W versus R-89S Battery

If the R89W and R89S that you are looking at look exactly the same -- there is something real wrong someplace.

R89W should have lined -- like a grain pattern -- panels on the sides.

R89S has circles on the sides, and most importantly the smooth top does NOT have the cell dividers telegraphing (or ghosting) through the top surface.

I suggest you take another look at the two examples you are seeing -- there are, or to be more exact there should be some very obvious differences between the batteries.

[Paul C.]

Re: R-89W versus R-89S Battery

I am trying to look at pictures of them.

[Terry M.]

Re: R-89W versus R-89S Battery

I can't recall how long ago it was -- probably in the mid-1990s -- I wrote a couple of Restorer articles about the introduction of the SST (Sealed Side Terminal) batteries in the 1969 model year. These stores contained photos and drawings from Delco Remy. The original material is in the NCRS archives. You might want to search for those articles. I could provide you an exact date, but i am on the Road Tour, and as you may know Corvettes do not allow one to travel with all the reference recources at hand.

[Paul C.]

Re: R-89W versus R-89S Battery

The real point of the question was which battery to buy for a 1971 SB for judging and which company has the one to meet the NCRS requirements. Restoration batteries, antique battery, classic industries, etc.---which one meets requirements and has best price--they are very expensive!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can't afford a mistake if you decide to buy one.

[Brad M.]

Re: R-89W versus R-89S Battery

Paul,

Regarding the R-89S, I believe that Antique Auto Battery is the only one with licensing rights to produce them. I think Restoration Battery buys the R-89S from Antique Auto Battery and distributes them only. I am not familiar with classic industries.

I am not sure who produces or has licensing rights for the R-89W, so will someone else comment on that.....

[Chuck S.]

Re: R-89W versus R-89S Battery

The real point of the question was which battery to buy for a 1971 SB for judging and which company has the one to meet the NCRS requirements. Restoration batteries, antique battery, classic industries, etc.---which one meets requirements and has best price--they are very expensive!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can't afford a mistake if you decide to buy one.

The question of R89W vs R89S is separate from the question of which restoration battery is the best to buy. The only possible connection between these two questions is indirect based on the quality of the restoration supplier's efforts. Only experience with resto batteries, of which I have none, can say which reproduction of either model fairs well in judging.

As for model type, a small block car, with the exception of LT1, could use either battery model as Lyle said...R89S was the standard Delco battery for the small block cars (with exception of LT1), and the R89W was the available heavy duty battery option (RPO T60). As others said, the R89W was standard for the big block cars...If you have a big block car, you MUST use the R89W; if you use an R89S, you will get a deduct...even if it's a perfect repro.

The model of the battery originally installed in the car has nothing to do with a vendor's efforts to provide a resto battery 30 years later. Further, since only those with copies of their original order or tank sticker know if their car had the optional R89W, no one can say if any given small block car had the option. In that case, you could use EITHER battery model without deduction, providing the repro is indistinguishable from the original (BIG caveat).

[Paul C.]

Re: R-89W versus R-89S Battery

You mentioned with the exception of the LT-1. Which battery did the LT-1 have because I have an LT-1.

[Patrick H.]

Re: R-89W versus R-89S Battery

Paul,

The "best" battery to buy may be whatever current ACDelco is available in the correct size and with only side terminals. (I see that only the 78-6YR is currently listed)

Why?

1/3 the cost and 3x the life. For 8 points difference between ACDelco 2008 and repro, are those 8 points worth $200?

That is a question that only you can answer.

Or, wait until Carlisle and visit the Restoration Battery booth right by the grandstand. Look at them yourself and see which battery looks the best. Talk with the company's owner right there. Then you can make an informed decision.

Patrick

[Chuck S.]

Re: R-89W versus R-89S Battery

You mentioned with the exception of the LT-1. Which battery did the LT-1 have because I have an LT-1.

Sorry, Paul...I'm misinforming you...LT1s did NOT have the R89W as I thought, but the standard R89S. I keep making this mistake...it must be a groove in my gray matter.

There was a thread on March 4, 2008, in which Terry McManmon gave a detailed explanation of the early C3 battery applications (text below). However, his explanation was in the context of a 70 Corvette which also used R79S and R79W through about serial number 11000. Disregard the R79 discussion...not relevant to your 71.

Your car should use an R89S...if someone knowledgeable said the repro R89S would receive a deduct in the context of your LT1, they probably meant the repro has a detectable configuration fault that leads to a deduct.

Personally...I'm not trying to lose a sale for Restoration Battery, but I decided a long time ago to follow the advice Patrick gave. It's a matter of reliability and service life, and well as justifying the high price for those judging points.


Terry McManmon's 3/4/2008 post:

"Let's separate this into a couple of 1970 issues.

1) The RXXW was the standard battery for the LS5, and the T60 option for the small block -- ALL small blocks. The RXXS was the standard battery for ALL small blocks.

2) Later 1969 and early 1970s (ALL motors) used the R79(X) batteries. Later 1970s used the R89(X) batteries. The difference -- which we covered in the closing days of the old board -- The 79 series batteries had a different thread size for the negative terminal. The positive terminal was 3/8x16 threads -- the negative terminal was 5/16x18 threads.

The later 1970s (and ALL 1971 & 72s) used the 89 series batteries which had the same size threads for both positive and negative terminals -- 3/8x16.

Late 1969 and early 1970 standard battery = R79S
Late 1969 and early 1970 LS5 and T60 battery = R79W
Later 1970 and 1971 & 1972 standard battery = R89S
Later 1970 and 1971 & 1972 LS5 and T60 battery = R89W

I can't remember when we estimated the change took place (I'll leave it to you guys to look up), but if you have a funky (how's that for a technical term?) bolt for the negative terminal -- or maybe even one of those replacement clamp on terminals for the negative only -- odds are good your car had a 79 series battery originally.

I don't remember borrowing anyone's battery for my car. I have an R89S on the shelf -- long dead now -- that functioned fine for judging. It was a fresh dry-charge that I put in service just for the judging. It easily lasted the several years I spent in that process. In fact Tom Kubman gave me the R79S sticker that I put on -- SERVICE REPLACEMENT batteries (which this is/was didn't come with the assembly line sticker. I also have an R79S dry charged sitting on the shelf as a museum piece. It will not be put into service by me in my lifetime. Few noticed the 89 battery with a 79 sticker on it, but it was fun when they did.

There is a whole other story about the size and style of the battery terminal bolts – but that is another story for another thread – or look it up in the old Restorers – there are descriptions and photos there.

The definitive reference to the early side terminal batteries and their cable terminations was a series of three stories that I did for John Amgwert in the late '80s, one of which was a first person account of the introduction of the side terminal battery into the Chevrolet line by the Delco representative to Chevrolet in 1969 and 1970. BTW: I see from my Cadillac Club publication he is still alive. He is one of the founders of that club and lives in Arizona. Those stories included line drawings and photo images generously supplied by Delco. There is no way one could duplicate those stories today -- the reference materials now exist only in the NCRS archives.

To cut the cheese a little finer – since NCRS does not judge window stickers – most folks have used the reproduction R89W – that was the only reproduction side terminal battery available for some time. I believe there is or was an R89S available for a while, but I am not sure of the current state of the reproduction market. Since I am no longer team leader I don’t keep up with the market place. Anyway, since we don’t judge window stickers any side terminal C3 (except late 1969 and early 1970) could have come with an R89W. I think the deduct for the 89 series battery in place of the 79 series is minor – but of course the least expensive option is the current service replacement Delco. Now that Delco batteries are not made by Delco (you should see what the new C6 battery looks like – not even worthy of a Corvette) there may be a greater deduction for lack of configuration. You would be wise to check with the team leaders about that issue if you decide to go that route. They now look like they have caps that open – and not the Delco Eye caps either.

Sorry this is so long – I hope y’all can make sense out of it."
__________________
Terry

1970 LT1 Mulsanne Blue
2008 Z06 Jetstream Blue
A couple of Gen II LT-1s in 9C1s
and an LS1 in a B4C
Last edited by Terry McManmon (3966) : March 4th, 2008 at 04:46 PM.

[Paul C.]

Re: R-89W versus R-89S Battery

My final question is why would they sell a repro battery that has "has a detectable configuration fault that leads to a point deduction?" If this is true you and Patrick are right--just buy a delco battery and loose the 8 points or buy a $300 battery R-89S and still loose points.

[Chuck S.]

Re: R-89W versus R-89S Battery

My final question is why would they sell a repro battery that has "has a detectable configuration fault that leads to a point deduction?"

Many suppliers lack the passion of the restorer for exactness. This has always frustrated the ever-livin' **** out of me...it requires no more labor and money to make an excellent reproduction part than it does a poor reproduction part.

Corvette vendors should KNOW that NCRS judges and collectors are going to find every minute difference from the original, and still we get so-called reproduction parts that differ from the originals and won't fit. Maybe they aren't making their parts for the NCRS crowd, but that's probably at least half of the market.

Maybe it's toolmakers with no access to an original, plus a lack of exacting oversight and inspection of their work. No doubt, once a difference from the original is built into the tooling, it isn't going to get corrected. If they make a big mistake, it's like the plates our money is printed on...they would have to throw out the bad tool and start over.

In many cases, for some repro suppliers/vendors, it's become just a way to make a buck. If they (supplier and vendor) provide you with something representing the part in exchange for the money, it's not robbery.

If this is true you and Patrick are right--just buy a delco battery and loose the 8 points or buy a $300 battery R-89S and still loose points.

I think you're beginning to get the picture. In fairness to the repro batteries, you may lose fewer points on a GOOD repro, but is that point differential worth the $300 to you? Also, with the Delco, you'll have a battery that meets OEM performance and life standards by definition.

[Harmon C.]

Re: R-89W versus R-89S Battery

Their has been lots of different ways people read how to judge a battery from the judging reference manual. A new Delco may be a different size and the coal cranking amps may be different so 8 points deduction may not be what happens for the same battery in a 73-77 as in a 71-72. I thought all the judging sheets were on line so I could see the latest assigned points for the same battery from 71-77 but I could not find them. I will check out deductions taken for thease batteries this week at St. Charles.

[Paul O.]