Concour's Judging

[Kevin G.]

Yes, this is a bit off topic but I'm asking for tech, information. Can someone describe the Concour's judging process. Is it usually a point system or cleanliness or just the car that catches the judges eye? What can be done to achieve a "Ribbon" at a show of this level.

Here's a link to the event I'm attending this weekend with my 71 Bowtie/Duntov car.

http://buckinghamautoshow.org/

Thanks,

Kevin

[William L.]

Re: Concour's Judging

Kevin
Most Concours shows I have been to it's cleanliness, cleanliness, cleanliness and presentation.
They most likely have a a score sheet, but it applies to all the cars in the show.
NCRS and Bloomington judging have changed the way a lot of shows are Judged.
You should do well, Go and enjoy yourself.
Bill

[Don H.]

Re: Concour's Judging

It depends on who does the judging. At a public vote, custom paint and flashy wheels usually win. When participants vote it is a little better but the higher the street rod presence, the more flash counts. With class judging by named judges, cleanliness and condition will count. Of course these are generalities. You have a gem in NCRS member's eyes. Good luck, Don H.

[Roy B.]

Re: Concour's Judging

cleanliness and who knows who , nothing to do with what's original

[Kevin G.]

Re: Concour's Judging

Kevin
Most Concours shows I have been to it's cleanliness, cleanliness, cleanliness and presentation.
They most likely have a a score sheet, but it applies to all the cars in the show.
NCRS and Bloomington judging have changed the way a lot of shows are Judged.
You should do well, Go and enjoy yourself.
Bill

Bill, So I guess spending the day tomorrow detailing would help!lol Just joking but I will make it as clean as possible! Thanks,
Kevin

It depends on who does the judging. At a public vote, custom paint and flashy wheels usually win. When participants vote it is a little better but the higher the street rod presence, the more flash counts. With class judging by named judges, cleanliness and condition will count. Of course these are generalities. You have a gem in NCRS member's eyes. Good luck, Don H.

Don, Thank you! It is a judged event by named judges not the participants or public. I think it's a gem as well! Thankx for the luck!

cleanliness and who knows who , nothing to do with what's original

Roy, that's what I'm afraid of! I don't know anyone! lol
But it will be clean!

Thank you,

Kevin

[Louis T.]

Re: Concour's Judging

Hi Kevin,







Have fun!

Louis

[Stephen B.]

Re: Concour's Judging

I always thought that when one restores a car to seriously compete in a Concours de Elegance show, the car needs to be restored to the ideal perfection level. Obvious factory defects are removed, and the presentation along with cleanliness are of the upmost importance.

[Bill M.]

Re: Concour's Judging

This doesn't sound like a show-and-shine, where you lose points for cleanliness. Judging at these is done a cleanliness scale only.

This sounds like an attempt at a high-end concours like Pebble Beach, Meadowbrook, or Amelia Island, where very knowledgeable judges rate the cars. I would take my NCRS awards and display them (if possible). That should impress the judges!

Good luck!

[Kevin G.]

Re: Concour's Judging

Hi Kevin,







Have fun!

Louis

Louis, You are correct that thhe cars are seperated by type, Thunderbirds, Model T's, Corvettes, Jaguars, etc. The turn out at this event is tremendous, people come from far distances. With very top quality high end cars. Some are in there original condition while others are retored to perfection. Not knowing the judges I can't determine there kowledge levels or tastes. As you say I will ennjoy myself and hope for the best. Regards,
Kevin

I always thought that when one restores a car to seriously compete in a Concours de Elegance show, the car needs to be restored to the ideal perfection level. Obvious factory defects are removed, and the presentation along with cleanliness are of the upmost importance.

Steven, Well there certainly won't be any type of removal of factory defects going on here.Those are the things that "teach" us how it was done. Lucky for me the 71 doesn't have many and any defects are not easily seen. Let me finish my tea and I'll be in the garage if you need me!lol
Kevin

This doesn't sound like a show-and-shine, where you lose points for cleanliness. Judging at these is done a cleanliness scale only.

This sounds like an attempt at a high-end concours like Pebble Beach, Meadowbrook, or Amelia Island, where very knowledgeable judges rate the cars. I would take my NCRS awards and display them (if possible). That should impress the judges!

Good luck!

Bill, You're right, this show is an attempt at a "Pebble Beach" type, but I'm not so sure about the judges knowledge. Some of the cars the have won in the past were, lets just say far from factory. Example a few years ago I saw a early C3, purple with custom interior vette pick up a trophy.Very nicely done but not original. As Roy stated "nothing to do with originality", maybe it really is who you know? I wasn't sure if I should display the NCRS Awards, however the are beautiful and it does help to explain the car. On your advise I will put them out!

Thank you for your help,

Kevin

[Chuck W.]

Re: Concour's Judging

I have had cars at Glenmoor, Amelia, Cranbrook, and Meadowbrook. While the judging at each varies from year to year there are certain aspects which are common. The common denominator at most of these events seems to be the importance of the particular marque or specific vehicle to automobile history. Also important is the particular car's history and provenance as submitted for invitation to the event (hence some pre-judging).

I have yet to see cleanliness, certifications, other awards, condition, or even restoration quality play a huge role in the on-field judging. I have also yet to see award, trophy, or ribbon displays encouraged or allowed at significant Concours events. Most Concours ask you to keep your hood, doors, and trunk closed and to display your vehicle in what you believe to be its best light (top down or up is owner's decision). Concours judging is probably one of the most misunderstood roles at the event. For Corvette, Mustang, Camaro, etc. folks, a Concours can be a rather frustrating and negative experience. We tend to carry forward our importance of "correctness" and "originality" to a Concours only to find those factors apparently overlooked.

Dominate vehicles at most Concours are not the Corvette participants (except perhaps very rare examples like original Grand Sports, CERV, or other prototype, racing models, or significant years) or even most other American production cars and instead dominant are the rare Bugatti, Duesenberg, Isotta Fraschini, Ferrari, as well as orphan cars like Packard, Pierce Arrow, Mercer, etc, as well as custom bodied cars.

I have learned over time to enjoy a Concours show as a participant by adjusting my expectation and understanding of the event and simply enjoying the field. In reality if I really were bent on receiving an award, I'd only enroll a rare bodied, non-American, example of significant automotive importance. Instead I just like seeing the cars, talking with friends, and being on the field.

At this years ACD show, I was talking with Harry Yeaggy, whose Mormon Meteor won Pebble Beach last year (first American car to win in years). He described the several day long process of road tour requirement, informal interviews from judges during the days prior to the actual event, and then finally the show itself. All most people see and comment on is the show field event and awards and then declare the winners were "already determined" without proper judging. Not exactly accurate.

All in all Concours field judging may be the same but the field judging alone may not be the sole determinant of the class winner. If you have an opportunity to be invited to a significant Concours, I recommend you participate provided you have a realistic understanding of how they operate.

My experience at Bill Warner's Concours at Amelia a few years ago with my Black '54 was by far one of the best weekends I have ever spent at a car show. Didn't matter whether I won an award or not, it was just a really enjoyable show.

[William L.]

Re: Concour's Judging

Kevin; Take some pictures and let us know how you did? Remember, be thick skinned, most people have know idea what they are looking at or how hard it is to achieve a Duntov. If you can get into an unrestored class, make sure that the judges know that your car is unrestored and if you can explain what a Duntov award is. Good luck. Bill

[Kevin G.]

Re: Concour's Judging

I have had cars at Glenmoor, Amelia, Cranbrook, and Meadowbrook. While the judging at each varies from year to year there are certain aspects which are common. The common denominator at most of these events seems to be the importance of the particular marque or specific vehicle to automobile history. Also important is the particular car's history and provenance as submitted for invitation to the event (hence some pre-judging).

I have yet to see cleanliness, certifications, other awards, condition, or even restoration quality play a huge role in the on-field judging. I have also yet to see award, trophy, or ribbon displays encouraged or allowed at significant Concours events. Most Concours ask you to keep your hood, doors, and trunk closed and to display your vehicle in what you believe to be its best light (top down or up is owner's decision). Concours judging is probably one of the most misunderstood roles at the event. For Corvette, Mustang, Camaro, etc. folks, a Concours can be a rather frustrating and negative experience. We tend to carry forward our importance of "correctness" and "originality" to a Concours only to find those factors apparently overlooked.

Dominate vehicles at most Concours are not the Corvette participants (except perhaps very rare examples like original Grand Sports, CERV, or other prototype, racing models, or significant years) or even most other American production cars and instead dominant are the rare Bugatti, Duesenberg, Isotta Fraschini, Ferrari, as well as orphan cars like Packard, Pierce Arrow, Mercer, etc, as well as custom bodied cars.

I have learned over time to enjoy a Concours show as a participant by adjusting my expectation and understanding of the event and simply enjoying the field. In reality if I really were bent on receiving an award, I'd only enroll a rare bodied, non-American, example of significant automotive importance. Instead I just like seeing the cars, talking with friends, and being on the field.

At this years ACD show, I was talking with Harry Yeaggy, whose Mormon Meteor won Pebble Beach last year (first American car to win in years). He described the several day long process of road tour requirement, informal interviews from judges during the days prior to the actual event, and then finally the show itself. All most people see and comment on is the show field event and awards and then declare the winners were "already determined" without proper judging. Not exactly accurate.

All in all Concours field judging may be the same but the field judging alone may not be the sole determinant of the class winner. If you have an opportunity to be invited to a significant Concours, I recommend you participate provided you have a realistic understanding of how they operate.

My experience at Bill Warner's Concours at Amelia a few years ago with my Black '54 was by far one of the best weekends I have ever spent at a car show. Didn't matter whether I won an award or not, it was just a really enjoyable show.

Chuck, Thank you for the insight and the very informative reply! Perhaps I'll bring my plaques and keep them along side my chair, in other words visable but not conspictuous. Perhaps they will view my car with important significance as it's at the end of the big horse powered motors?Certainly I will enjoy the oppurtunity to have the car at such a fine event.

Kevi

Kevin; Take some pictures and let us know how you did? Remember, be thick skinned, most people have know idea what they are looking at or how hard it is to achieve a Duntov. If you can get into an unrestored class, make sure that the judges know that your car is unrestored and if you can explain what a Duntov award is. Good luck. Bill

You got it Bill Happy to take some photo's and return results (as much as they supply).
Kevin

[Stephen B.]

Re: Concour's Judging

Yes bring your NCRS awards to help with their opinions of the car. Moreover, you can bribe then with a "Save the Wave" hand.

[Kevin G.]

Re: Concour's Judging

A quote from a very close NCRS friend of mine:
"Oh no, a Duntov car beaten by a purple POS. There is no justice. Fu$%^&*^& purple bastard!" lol

Great weather, met up with a few old friends and made some new ones, really enjoyed myself! Roy, you nailed it this is a who you know show for sure!

Some pictures for you guy's and girls...........

[Kevin G.]

Re: Concour's Judging