C2 Frame Pull Dating

[James W.]

I'm getting ready to put the body back on the frame on a '65 convertible. In order to get a ball park frame pull date, was the frame pull date usually about 1 to 2 days prior to the trim tag build date? This is a St. Louis built body.

Trim Tag build date is L14 (July 14, 1965) which was a Wednesday so would it be acceptable to write 7-12-65 on the frame as the frame pull date?


Thanks,

James West

[Michael H.]

Re: C2 Frame Pull Dating

I'm getting ready to put the body back on the frame on a '65 convertible. In order to get a ball park frame pull date, was the frame pull date usually about 1 to 2 days prior to the trim tag build date? This is a St. Louis built body.

Trim Tag build date is L14 (July 14, 1965) which was a Wednesday so would it be acceptable to write 7-12-65 on the frame as the frame pull date?


Thanks,

James West

James,

Pretty sure the frame date wouldn't be two working days before the trim tag date. Probably not one day either. It's actually possible (likely, in fact) that the frame date could be the same or one working day after the trim tag date.

Maybe others with original dates will post their dates.

[Tony S.]

Re: C2 Frame Pull Dating

It's not the trim tag date that is key. It's the car's build date. Run your VIN through the NCRS WI website and get your car's build date, then use the day before the car's build date as the pull date. Mine was built on July 29, '65, so I used July 28, '65 as my "pull" date.

Tony

[Michael H.]

Re: C2 Frame Pull Dating

It's not the trim tag date that is key. It's the car's build date. Run your VIN through the NCRS WI website and get your car's build date, then use the day before the car's build date as the pull date. Mine was built on July 29, '65, so I used July 28, '65 as my "pull" date.

Tony

I think we need to back up a bit here and clarify the date that we're talking about.

If you have a 65, the frame date is a hand written date that is applied just minutes before the frame is set into motion on the St Louis frame line.
At that point in time, the trim tag date has likely already been punched into the tag. (the body build takes a LOT longer to build than the chassis)
It would depend on the location on the body line in 1965 that the tags were stamped and installed but I doubt it's location could have been far enough down the line into hard trim area to be done after the frame begins it's assembly. That's why it's highly unlikely that the frame date is earlier than the trim tag date. My guess is same or next day for the frame date.

Now, as far as late 66 and later, the frame date is a completely different story. For some reason, the system changed and the frame date was included as part of the GM and AOS part number stencil that was applied at the plant where the frame was made, A.O. Smith.
That would reverse the order and make the AOS applied date earlier than the trim tag date.

I don't think the NCRS website, or any other source, can possibly be more accurate than the date on the trim tag for body build. (at St Louis) That's the actual point in time that the painted body started down the hard trim line so it has to be accurate.
I think most of the website calculators are just that. Calculators. They average a weeks worth of builds and divide by the number of days in that work week for a daily total.

Maybe John Hinckley remembers exactly where the trim/VIN tag station was in the mid 60's. I think it was in the beginning of hard trim but not sure.
At that point, the frame for that job is probably still sitting in a stack inside the building and hasn't yet been assigned a job number or date.

[Michael H.]

Re: C2 Frame Pull Dating

I'm getting ready to put the body back on the frame on a '65 convertible. In order to get a ball park frame pull date, was the frame pull date usually about 1 to 2 days prior to the trim tag build date? This is a St. Louis built body.

Trim Tag build date is L14 (July 14, 1965) which was a Wednesday so would it be acceptable to write 7-12-65 on the frame as the frame pull date?


Thanks,

James West

I just dug out info on a few 65's that show most frame dates are the same as the trim tag date. Two have frame dates one day prior to the tag date. One of those two is my old 65 396 car that Burroughs wrote the book about. (Corvette Restoration, State of the Art)
That car, 14,971, had a frame date of 9 April 65. Dave mentions that the car was completed on the following work day but doesn't give the actual trim tag date. Anyone have that info or book handy?

In any event, I think same day is most common but if the frame date was written near the end of a shift, the trim tag may have been stamped/installed early the next morning.
If any originals show a two working day span, I'd be very interested in hearing about it.

[Tony S.]

Re: C2 Frame Pull Dating

James. I'm not sure that the date you write on the frame has alot of practical value since it will be covered up for 40 years until the next guy comes along in 2048 to restore it again. From less of a practical consideration and more of a theoretical one, I don't think that the Trim Tag date is the date you should be keying on for writing your pull date on the passenger side of your frame. Bill Williamson and Kent Patterson both have A. O. Smith bodies with their L78 cars. I'm sure that there is a few day lag between the trim tag date and the chassis pull date on their cars. Michael is right: the birthday calculators are estimators (probably very good estimators) but just that. I'd work off of your car's build date and work from there. If your chassis was pulled later in the day, then your car may have been completed the next day. If it was started at the beginning of the work day, then I would imagine that it would have been finished the day the chassis was pulled (and nobody knows that level of detail). That's why I chose to write the date one day before my car's theoretical build date. Sometimes, you just have to make your best educated guess and move on.

Hope this helps. I'll send the CD to you after I down load them this weekend.

Good luck!
Tony

[Wayne M.]

Re: C2 Frame Pull Dating

....396 car that Burroughs wrote the book about. (Corvette Restoration, State of the Art)
That car, 14,971, had a frame date of 9 April 65. Dave mentions that the car was completed on the following work day but doesn't give the actual trim tag date. Anyone have that info or book handy?.....

Michael -- have the book in front of me showing pic of 4/9/65 crayon date on the frame. Photo description says this is a Friday, and the car was completed on the following Monday, April 12th. I would think they got this date off the S-body trim tag (?).

Can't see any reference to trim tag elsewhere (however, just skimmed the pages). IMO the book concentrates excessively on chassis and engine. He does seem to imply an S-body when talking about rear filler panel's unpainted spots "... Remember that when the body was painted at St. Louis ..." No mention of Ionia bodies at all.

[John H.]

Re: C2 Frame Pull Dating

Maybe John Hinckley remembers exactly where the trim/VIN tag station was in the mid 60's. I think it was in the beginning of hard trim but not sure.
At that point, the frame for that job is probably still sitting in a stack inside the building and hasn't yet been assigned a job number or date.

The midyear trim tag (on St. Louis bodies) was created and affixed at the first station on the Hard Trim Line; same station where the VIN plate was created and affixed. There were a LOT more jobs-in-system between that first station on the Hard Trim Line and Body Drop than there were between the first station on the Frame Line and Body Drop, so the frame wouldn't have started yet when the body entered the first station on the Hard Trim Line.

The build date on an A.O. Smith body's trim tag won't tell you much, as it was created and affixed in Ionia, Michigan, and the body then spent 7-10 days in transit on a rail car before it was introduced into the Hard Trim Line at St. Louis. For a '64-'66 A.O. Smith-bodied car, I'd use the "Birthday Book" to estimate the production date based on the VIN, and back up one day from there for the frame "pull date".

[Michael H.]

Re: C2 Frame Pull Dating

Michael -- have the book in front of me showing pic of 4/9/65 crayon date on the frame. Photo description says this is a Friday, and the car was completed on the following Monday, April 12th. I would think they got this date off the S-body trim tag (?).

Can't see any reference to trim tag elsewhere (however, just skimmed the pages). IMO the book concentrates excessively on chassis and engine. He does seem to imply an S-body when talking about rear filler panel's unpainted spots "... Remember that when the body was painted at St. Louis ..." No mention of Ionia bodies at all.

Thanks wayne. I don't remember if David used the trim tag date or was using an estimate of when the completed car rolled off the end of the line. Those two points of production could easily be a day apart.
The car is an St Louis body but I don't have any more info than that.
Still don't know who has that car today.

[Michael H.]

Re: C2 Frame Pull Dating

The midyear trim tag (on St. Louis bodies) was created and affixed at the first station on the Hard Trim Line; same station where the VIN plate was created and affixed. There were a LOT more jobs-in-system between that first station on the Hard Trim Line and Body Drop than there were between the first station on the Frame Line and Body Drop, so the frame wouldn't have started yet when the body entered the first station on the Hard Trim Line.

Thanks John. I agree, if the trim/VIN tag station was AFTER the reflow oven in the 60's, then the frame date would have been installed before the tags which would make it likely that many trim tags were dated at least an hour or two after the frame was set on line. That makes it entirely possible that the frame could show a date one day prior to the trim tag if the frame date was installed late on a shift.
The trim/VIN would have then been created and installed early the next day.
If the frame date was installed early on a shift, it's likely the body would have been through reflow and receive it's trim? VIN the same day.

I don't see how any tag could have been dated two working days ahead of the frame date though. The two operations were only a few hours apart at opposite corners of the building so a second day wouldn't be required.

Check out the St Louis plant blueprint that I gave you. We can count the number of jobs shown for each line and get a pretty good estimate of the time required on each line. I'll count the jobs/hours on the chassis line but you'll have to count the jobs/hours on the hard trim line because I don't know exactly where the trim/VIN tag station was in the 60's.

[Wayne M.]

Re: C2 Frame Pull Dating

....The car is an St Louis body but I don't have any more info than that.
Still don't know who has that car today.

Michael -- incredible how a car like that can disappear into a collection. I doubt that Don Ellefsen still has it.

Here's 3 pics I took at 1981 NCRS National meet, in St.Louis.

I see that the Burroughs book says you accquired the car from Steve Dangremond (Calif.) -- Now THERE'S a blast from the past -- he was into C2 tankers in the '80s.

[Michael H.]

Re: C2 Frame Pull Dating

Michael -- incredible how a car like that can disappear into a collection. I doubt that Don Ellefsen still has it.

Here's 3 pics I took at 1981 NCRS National meet, in St.Louis.

I see that the Burroughs book says you accquired the car from Steve Dangremond (Calif.) -- Now THERE'S a blast from the past -- he was into C2 tankers in the '80s.

Thanks for the pic's Wayne. That was a fun car. Bought it in San Francisco from Steve through a friend, Rick Brown.
I had a blast in that car. Drove it down Highway 1, the coast highway, to Los Angeles, then eventually Dallas, Nawlins, Atlanta and then home to Illinois. Was a month long 4000 mile vacation. (and about 30 gallons of antifreeze)
Slowest 396 I ever owned or drove.

Another one I never should have sold.

By the way, that car left GM with chrome valve covers and entire air cleaner assembly. (not just the cover) It was used by GM photographic dept and the chrome was added for some of their advertising pic's.
It didn't leave St Louis that way though.

[John H.]

Re: C2 Frame Pull Dating

Check out the St Louis plant blueprint that I gave you. We can count the number of jobs shown for each line and get a pretty good estimate of the time required on each line. I'll count the jobs/hours on the chassis line but you'll have to count the jobs/hours on the hard trim line because I don't know exactly where the trim/VIN tag station was in the 60's.

The first station on the Hard Trim line was about at column H-17, in the loop following the Reflow Oven.

[Michael H.]

Re: C2 Frame Pull Dating

The first station on the Hard Trim line was about at column H-17, in the loop following the Reflow Oven.

Ok, thanks john. It was at D25 in later years which would explain why the frame for C3 was probably on the line at least an hour or two after the trim tag was stamped/installed on the body.
I'll try to figure out the timing of the events later.

At location H17 for C2, I would have to assume that it was the opposite. Frame pull/date first, then the trim/VIN at least an hour or two later.

[Andy F.]

Re: C2 Frame Pull Dating

James,
Is this John's car you are working on? Not to hijack the thread, but I'm curious if you all have painted it yet, or will do that body on.

Andy