Paint Judging?

[Joel F.]

Re: Paint Judging?

Erv,

I see your point and agree to a certain extent, however I also think the system is very fair, and the paint standards are clear and unambiguous (to me anyway) if you follow the flow chart.

If you know what the standards are going in, your painter should be able to work within them to achieve the right combination of paint quality and judging outcome for each owner. If the owner wants maximum judging point they must work within the system. The net take-away to me is that it is possible to have pretty BC/CC paint job and get a lot of points back simply by dulling certain areas that wouldn't even be noticed at most cruise nights or shine-and-shows.

Joel

[Pat M.]

Re: Paint Judging?

A different aspect of paint judging I was not thrilled with at the National was that the color of my paint was judged against a paint swatch, and I did lose nine points on this issue. My thinking was, every car back then had paint that exactly matched this swatch? Where is this swatch from, and how old is it? How do we know IT'S accurate today?

[Michael H.]

Re: Paint Judging?

A different aspect of paint judging I was not thrilled with at the National was that the color of my paint was judged against a paint swatch, and I did lose nine points on this issue. My thinking was, every car back then had paint that exactly matched this swatch? Where is this swatch from, and how old is it? How do we know IT'S accurate today?

If your car is painted with metallic, then there is no such thing as "matching" the paint to anything. Metallics didn't match from one car to another when they were brand new.

What kind of paint swatch did the judge have? If it was something in a paint color book, original paint colors never matched the sample swatch.

[Michael H.]

Re: Paint Judging?

I have been pricing paint jobs and the price tags are outrageous. In the $18K - $25k range to change the color back to original. Then comes the judging to see if the dollars you spent are worth anything.

If a painter/body shop wanted to charge me $18K-$25K for a paint job, then it better darn well be correct and in lacquer.
These guys think they're restoring a Rolls Royce at those prices but they won't paint an old Corvette in the correct paint.
I don't buy any of the stories about how much better BC/CC paint is or how difficult it is to get lacquer. (yes, I know it's better)
If a Corvette that should be painted in lacquer is restored using BC/CC, then it should be judged accordingly.

And the outrageous prices for any Corvette repaint is also insane. The hardest part is stripping the body properly. Painting is the easy part.
These guys think they have to "fit all the body panels" to perfection and eliminate all the typical waves/ripples in the panels.
As far as I'm concerned, that takes the Corvette right out of the Corvette.

Can ya tell that the current thinking/results of many Corvette restorations is very irritating to me?

Frame/chassis restoration keeps getting better/more accurate over the years but body/paint hasn't improved at all as far as "restoration goes. In many was, it's gone backwards.
I'm very disappointed with many restorations I see in the last few years.

[Roy S.]

Re: Paint Judging?

It is extremely hard to answer these questions and answer all of them appropriately.

First no where in any NCRS publication have you seen any wording that says your car must be painted with the material used at the factory. But you will see wording that says that your car must appear to be painted with the material originally used at the factory and as applied at the factory.

We are dealing with two unrelated but connected issues Body Color and Body Paint.

The standard for Body color reads:

Body Color

Originality 85

No Originality Deduction – Color corresponds to the factory installed
body trim plate color code, if applicable. The shade and the metallic
content and/or size, if applicable, are consistent with that applied at the
factory.

Deduct 20% of Originality – Color corresponds to the factory installed
body trim plate color code, if applicable. However, the color shade is not
consistent with the color shade applied at the factory.

Deduct 50% of Originality – Color corresponds to the factory installed
body trim plate color code, if applicable. However, the metallic content
and/or size, if applicable, is not consistent with the metallic content/size
applied at the factory.

Deduct 100% of Originality – Color of side panel cove depression, hood
stinger, and/or hardtop is a non-factory color, an unavailable factory color
combination or it is applied in an inappropriate year of manufacture.

Deduct 100% of Originality – Color does not correspond to the factory
installed body trim plate color code, if applicable, or is a non-factory color
or is a factory color applied in an inappropriate year of manufacture.

Many will read this and say oh my gosh the 100% deducts are out of line. I submit they are not we are talking about the NCRS our judging standard reads:

“Cars are to be judged to the standard of vehicle appearance, and as equipped at the time and point of final assembly by the Chevrolet Motor Division of General Motors Corporation. Presentation for judging is to be in the condition normally associated with that of a Corvette which has undergone the then current standard Chevrolet Dealer New Car Preparation for delivery to a purchaser, exclusive of any dealer or purchaser inspired additions, deletions or changes.”

So the above 100% deductions are certainly within reason given our judging standard and the small number of points that are applied to such a major item.



The standard for body paint which is where paint type comes into consideration reads

Body Paint

Originality 45 Condition 40

No Originality Deduction – The body paint is the original factory applied
finish or appears to have been refinished with the appropriate factory
applied material and appears consistent with factory application methods.
Judge Condition separately.

Deduct 20% of Originality - for either A or B below. All Corvettes were
produced under assembly line conditions subject to established
acceptable manufacturing conditions and tolerances.

A. The body paint appears to have been refinished with the
appropriate factory applied material, however, the degree of
coverage is inconsistent with factory application methods. Body
paint is evident on weather-stripping or trim which was applied after
the factory applied paint. Judge Condition separately.

B. Over-Restoration – Evaluate body paint for over-restoration.
Factory applied body paint typically has evidence of orange peel or
over spray in areas that are typical for that year of application.
Finishes that exceed typical factory standards shall receive
deduction. Judge Condition separately.

Deduct 50% of Originality – The body paint appears to have been
refinished with a material not consistent with factory application, however,
the appearance is consistent with factory application methods. Judge
Condition separately.

Deduct 100% of Originality and Condition – for either A or B below

A. The body paint appears to have been refinished with a material not
consistent with factory application and the appearance is not
consistent with factory application methods. Total deduction for
Originality and Condition.

B. The presence of any custom paint modifications which shall include
lettering (any media), pin striping, race car numbers, race style
stripes, flames or any other non-factory inspired additions. Total
deduction for Originality and Condition.

Our judging standard also says that you must score at least 10% originality to gain condition points. This is the rub that causes such a large deduction in body paint.

If you do not score at least 5 points in originality you loose all 40 in condition. Recognizing this as a problem NCRS years ago made a commitment to make some of those points available to the owner even with a system that did not meet the standard; but the owner has to meet the organization somewhere, that somewhere is in appearance make it appear to be the factory applied material we will give you access to those 40 points. If the judge thinks your car is bc/cc, urethane, etc. but you have attempted to make it look like factory applied material by presenting it with less gloss in what we call the unbuffed areas then we give you 50% of the originality points or 23 which makes your car eligible for the 40 in condition, if you do not make the attempt you loose 100% again its your car, do with it as you please, but recognize the organization judges by its standard and we have made concessions in this area. More concession than is actually necessary because you can make any paint system look like lacquer with the appropriate techniques and that’s what makes this so frustrating, make it appear to be over restored original material and loose only 20% or 9 points. Unfortunately you may not find a painter using those techniques in a production shop. There is not enough time or space for those techniques to be expalined in this discussion, it can be done, numerous cars with non factory paint systems have achieved the highest awards in NCRS with no deduction in body color or body paint.

[Pat M.]

Re: Paint Judging?

If your car is painted with metallic, then there is no such thing as "matching" the paint to anything. Metallics didn't match from one car to another when they were brand new.

What kind of paint swatch did the judge have? If it was something in a paint color book, original paint colors never matched the sample swatch.

Mike - my 70 IS painted with a lacquer metallic, Marlboro Maroon. The swatch (or whatever more appropriate term there may be) was not in a normal "book", it was with a small (maybe 2" x 3") series of differently colored squares held together with a ring or two. It was opened to my color, and literally butted up to my car to see if it matched.

[Michael H.]

Re: Paint Judging?

Thanks Roy. I think that says it all and I agree with it.

[Michael H.]

Re: Paint Judging?

Mike - my 70 IS painted with a lacquer metallic, Marlboro Maroon. The swatch (or whatever more appropriate term there may be) was not in a normal "book", it was with a small (maybe 2" x 3") series of differently colored squares held together with a ring or two. It was opened to my color, and literally butted up to my car to see if it matched.

Thought so. Those little color patches are nothing more than "pictures" of paint that have been transfered to paper. A lot is lost in the conversion. For one thing, a paper copy will not change brightness from within when the light intensity changes. The fact that a big percentage of the mix is binder (clear) allows light to enter the paint layer and the metallic particles reflect the light through the paint. That can dramatically change the color. That can't happen if it's only a picture of the color.

Maroon is a very difficult color to match and much more difficult when it's a metallic color.

Bob Zimmerman (stretch) and I once each had original paint Nassau blue 65 big block cars and the color was so far off from one to the other that you would have thought they were painted in different decades with different paint mfg material.

[Ridge K.]

Re: Paint Judging?

First let me thank all posters who contributed with helpful commentary, and input. And a special thanks to Roy Sinor for offering a very clear explanation of the factors on this issue. I now can grasp the explanation as to why a person who had worked very hard to match their paint color to "as factory applied" could lose 100% of points.
I also salute Roy for stepping up to the plate, and contributing to the TDB. Several of the board members of the NCRS are very, very helpful in contributing, but a few key people are seldom heard from. I understand that sometimes people who hold a position do not want anyone to feel like they are trying to "dominate" the discussion, and I commend that thought, but I also feel in many cases, those who have the experience of having been a member of the NCRS for decades, or hold a position, could add tremendously to answering the questions of younger members. No criticism here, just a point of view. Thanks again, Ridge.

[John H.]

Re: Paint Judging?

Here's the paint judging flow chart.

[Ken K.]

Re: Paint Judging?

Thank you Roy Sinor.

My car is BC/CC and all of the areas that should be dull were painted with dulled clear coat and they look great. I think it will get 50% on originality and 90% to 100% on condition.
Thank you very much for your long and detailed info.
Also thanks to all who replyed to my question.

Ken

[Jack H.]

Re: Paint Judging?

In the past, paint was a SINGLE line item worth 170 points and you lost it ALL with an 'obvious' two-step, base coat/clear coat paint job... The basic rule is you need at least 10% of the available originality points on a given line item to qualify for any consideration of condition points!

The score sheets were changed to promote a 'more friendly' NCRS during judging by splitting exterior paint into two separate line items: (1) Color at 85 points (originality only), and (2) Paint at 85 points (45 originality and 40 condition). But, the basic rule of making the car 'appear' to be the product of factory original workmanship remains.

I keep hearing members say they took a TOTAL DEDUCTION on paint due to judges calling their car as an obvious BC/CC job. That can't be true!

There's still a HEALTHY credit of 85 points set aside for color to lessen the impact of doing a restoration job that's obviously different in materials + workmanship from what's known to be factory original from the era.

Consider prior owners/members who took a 270 point 'hit' before the judging rules were liberalized! Many still managed to achieve Top Flight & Mark of Excellence awards back then...

[Tony S.]

Re: Paint Judging?

My car is BC/CC, but I got a zero point deduct at the recent Waco Regional Flight Judging. It can be done.

Tony

[Dennis C.]

Paint Judging?

What a relief to hear. It really is as simple as that. DC

[Joseph K.]

Re: Paint Judging?

This is where the NCRS alienates the motor enthusiast. If it is the right color and the condition or application is slightly different from the factory paint job hasn't the Mission Statement of the preservation of a corvette been obtained? A 100% deduct seems very steep to me.

I have been pricing paint jobs and the price tags are outrageous. In the $18K - $25k range to change the color back to original. Then comes the judging to see if the dollars you spent are worth anything.

Is it better to preserve more cars that to have the perfect subpar paint job that the original cars came with. Don't get me wrong, yes an original paint surface should be awarded more points, however are we here to promote the preservation of corvettes or support and promote the specialty repair shops that can reproduce a finish close to the original specifications.

At the end of the day when you repaint a car it is no longer original. But you do so in the process of restoring the car and preserving it to as close to original specification within reasonability.

Erv,

I agree with your post. The goal should be restoring the car to as close to original specifications within reasonability.

Joe