100ll av gas vs 10 percent ethanol

[Joel F.]

Re: 100ll av gas vs 10 percent ethanol

Stu,

It is illegal because there are no road taxes paid on it. The local airport knows exactly why a lot of people buy it, but they do prohibit pumping it directly into a car so the liability is not on them. Instead you must put it in a gas can(s). You can then take the gas can to the parking lot and fill your Corvette with it and drive off.

Joel

[Donald T.]

Re: 100ll av gas vs 10 percent ethanol

John;

I question the statement that it is Illegal - to use it in an automobile. I'd like a clarification on that. Perhaps in some states, and also any statute that adresses that probably is definitive as to what they mean by automobiles, i.e.: all, or perhaps certain years, or if the mfg. states/recommends that that vehicle must use unleaded, etc. I know many people, such as yourself, use 100LL and can't all be facing penalties for doing so. Is it all sold "out of the hanger" with a wink? how about the sellers?

I know if it were easier to get (proximity to an airport), I'd sure love to try it. I've been falling all over myself and losing sleep at night trying to overcome the drivability problems and garage stink with the crap gas.

Stu Fox

Amendments to the Clean Air Act made it illegal to sell or possess leaded fuel for use in on-road vehicles and subject to a $10,000 fine. So an airport could be liable if they permit pumping 100LL in a street car. The car owner could be liable as well. It is still permissable to use leaded gas for marine, aviation, or off-road vehicle use like race cars or farm equipment. The odds of getting caught may be pretty slim, but folks should still be aware of the potential liability of using any form of leaded fuel including 100LL in their street cars.

[Stuart F.]

Re: 100ll av gas vs 10 percent ethanol

Joel and Don;

Thanks for the clarification on that. Should have known it was in a large part due to taxes, i.e. some level of government not getting their share. About the clean air act, would that mean our adding Max 2000 w/TEL is illegal as well, and how about the sellers? Like you say; it would be hard to prove. I just fueled up at our local ExxonMobil station yesterday and dumped in my additive. So, suppose a CAC (Clean Air Cop) was monitoring the pumps, I could be 10k light today, Wow!

[Ridge K.]

Re: 100ll av gas vs 10 percent ethanol


I might offer a quick story.
My hometown of Tulsa, Oklahoma has two still in use, petroleum refineries, as Tulsa was the former "Oil Capital of the World". The Sunoco, and Sinclair refineries are still in continuous orperation to this day.
Back in 1973, when America first decided that lead additive should be removed from gasoline motor fuel, I was a 19 year old impressionable young man, working at a dealership. I had owned big block Chevrolet muscle cars since my 16th birthday, so was very concerned about what would happen with gasoline going unleaded. By 1975, all new cars built in America had catalytic converters, and hence could not be successfully operated on leaded gasoline (I realize that some people bypassed the system).

[Stuart F.]

Re: 100ll av gas vs 10 percent ethanol

Ridge;

Great story. Thanks. I like the way you stated that unleaded gas did not destroy the auto industry. Chuckle, that opens up an entirely new can of worms.

Stu Fox

[Rich G.]

Re: 100ll av gas vs 10 percent ethanol

As we speak about this subject, the EPA is trying to eliminate ALL leaded fuel. This will be a disaster for General Aviation. Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association is fighting this right now. There is a story about it on their web site:

http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2008/081201epa.html

Rich

[Donald T.]

Re: 100ll av gas vs 10 percent ethanol

Joel and Don;

Thanks for the clarification on that. Should have known it was in a large part due to taxes, i.e. some level of government not getting their share. About the clean air act, would that mean our adding Max 2000 w/TEL is illegal as well, and how about the sellers? Like you say; it would be hard to prove. I just fueled up at our local ExxonMobil station yesterday and dumped in my additive. So, suppose a CAC (Clean Air Cop) was monitoring the pumps, I could be 10k light today, Wow!

Stu,

Using any additive with TEL in a street car is illegal as well. You will find a disclaimer on the product that it is to be used for "off road use only". This is how the manufacturer avoids liability and places the burden solely on the consumer. Note the last sentence in the product description at the Kemco website. Albeit unlikely that you will find an EPA agent ensconced at your local gas station.

http://www.kemcooil.com/products.php?cId=4

[Michael W.]

Re: 100ll av gas vs 10 percent ethanol

Not all octane boosters are created equally. Many that claim a 'full point increase' in rating actually mean .1 point. Here are some tests results:

http://image.europeancarweb.com/f/8928718/0503ec_techboost_chart2.jpg

Note the small gain in rating. Much cheaper to just buy the higher octane gas in the first place (for those that actually need higher octane).

[John D.]

Re: 100ll av gas vs 10 percent ethanol

Rich,What I like about the aviation fuel is the fact that it will not gel or gum up in a 100 years. If it does then you got a bad batch. As far as the lead goes or the lack there of that doesn't concern me. A big factor also is that 100LL boils at a much higher temperature. I have proven that using my own 63 FI car for testing. At 90 plus degrees I ran the engine for one hour. Turned it off for about 10 minutes. The heat gauge climbed big time. Started the car up and it ran perfect. All this with the hood closed. Actually the hood was closed but not latched. John

[Dan H.]

Re: 100ll av gas vs 10 percent ethanol

Rich,What I like about the aviation fuel is the fact that it will not gel or gum up in a 100 years. If it does then you got a bad batch. As far as the lead goes or the lack there of that doesn't concern me. A big factor also is that 100LL boils at a much higher temperature. I have proven that using my own 63 FI car for testing. At 90 plus degrees I ran the engine for one hour. Turned it off for about 10 minutes. The heat gauge climbed big time. Started the car up and it ran perfect. All this with the hood closed. Actually the hood was closed but not latched. John

John, some of us actually leave the city limits and must use available gasoline!
Dan

[Stuart F.]

Re: 100ll av gas vs 10 percent ethanol

The prospect of "leaving the city" is exactly the reason I chose to go with the Max 2000. I can take as many quarts with me as necessary, and my engine loves it.

As for whether my original 63 L-76 engine needs it, I prefer to believe that it might. It has been stated by several learned NCRS members that this engine doesn't have the advertised 11.25 to 1 compression ratio, rather that they were double gasketed at the factory and check in more like 10.5 to 1. Not wanting to remove a head to verify this, I was advised I could check with a simple feeler gauge at various places around the head to block mating joint. It was stated that the original head gaskets were .016", and that given the use of two, initial "pre-crush" would be .032". It was not stated what the "crush" dimension would be (lets assume .003" to .005" each), but I should probably see at least a .022" to .026" gap. Well, the best measurment I can come up with is .015", and that is in the right front stamp pad area. Noting this, I've decided to stick with what works for me.

Stu Fox

[Joe L.]

Re: 100ll av gas vs 10 percent ethanol

Amendments to the Clean Air Act made it illegal to sell or possess leaded fuel for use in on-road vehicles and subject to a $10,000 fine. So an airport could be liable if they permit pumping 100LL in a street car. The car owner could be liable as well. It is still permissable to use leaded gas for marine, aviation, or off-road vehicle use like race cars or farm equipment. The odds of getting caught may be pretty slim, but folks should still be aware of the potential liability of using any form of leaded fuel including 100LL in their street cars.

Donald-----


That's the way it is.

[Joe L.]

Re: 100ll av gas vs 10 percent ethanol

As we speak about this subject, the EPA is trying to eliminate ALL leaded fuel. This will be a disaster for General Aviation. Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association is fighting this right now. There is a story about it on their web site:

http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2008/081201epa.html

Rich

Rich----

... and one of the USEPA arguments for eliminating lead in aviation fuel is that it will also eliminate the the lead in the environment that results from the illegal use of avgas in automobiles.

[Dan H.]

Re: 100ll av gas vs 10 percent ethanol

Good idea Stu, just finished a 2000 mile r/t to Oregon and carried a few qts of Max 130 lead additive 'just in case' I came accross some bad running gas. Once in Oregon, the 64 FI loved the gas there! went up to 21 mpg from 19 mpg on the lousy 91 octane Kalifornia gas! The Oregon gas was only 92 octane but ran soooo nice. Still have the 11/1 pistons etc in the 64 but the FI is very forgiving on the road. Usually run the pump gas here, plugs come out looking perfect without the lead etc. Keep the carbon out of the 63!
Dan

[Stuart F.]

Re: 100ll av gas vs 10 percent ethanol

Green House Gas vs. Lead Toxins; aren't we talking Apples and Oranges here?

Stu Fox