need valve lash advise if I don't know the cam - NCRS Discussion Boards

need valve lash advise if I don't know the cam

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  • Joe C.
    Expired
    • August 31, 1999
    • 4598

    #46
    Re: need valve lash advise if I don't know the cam

    Originally posted by Duke Williams (22045)
    Advanced from WHAT? "Advance" or "Retard" has to be relative to some datum.

    So...?

    Duke

    P.S. Your best move to be to remove all this "advance" and "retard" hot rod gobbledygook (which is, unfortunately part of the Engine Analyzer program) from your vernacular and start talking in terms or POMLs.

    When you go to get a cam ground you better tell them the exact POMLs you want. Otherwise you may not even know how the cam is indexed, or they will pick whatever indexing they think is "right".
    There you go again. You know, for someone who is always critical of others' writing style, ability, punctuation, syntax, and usage, you certainly do resort to speaking in colloquialisms whenever you are angry. This, of course, occurs with regularity whenever you are challenged in your pontifications. You should concentrate on the business at hand, rather than trying to divert attention by testing others' knowledge. I'll respond to your "smoke and mirrors" discourse, in kind. I trust that most folks on board, here, will follow along.

    As you know, a cam's LSA (lobe separation angle), defines the number of camshaft degrees separating the intake's POML (point of max lift) from that of the exhaust, and since the camshaft rotates at one-half the rate of the crankshaft, then a hypothetical camshaft with 110 LSA would be one in which the POML of the intake and exhaust would be separated by 220 crankshaft degrees. When a camshaft is neither advanced nor retarded relative to the crank, its intake's POML is the same number of crankshaft degrees ATDC as the exhaust valves' are BTDC.* So, the hypothetical camshaft whose LSA is 110 degrees, and is installed neither advanced nor retarded, would be one whose intake valves' LCL (lobe centerline), or POML are 110 crankshaft degrees ATDC, and whose exhaust valves' LCL, or POML are 110 crankshaft degrees BTDC.

    When a camshaft is specified as having a certain LSA, this does not in itself define the opening and closing events of the valves. The cam's timing relative to the crank must be specified, and most camshafts are manufactured with some degree of advance built in, generally between 2 and 8, with 4-6 being the most common. Look again at the hypothetical camshaft with 110 degree LSA, assume that it is ground with 4 degrees advance. If it is installed in the engine with its index mark directly opposite that of the crankshaft, then its intake POML is 106 crankshaft degrees ATDC and its exhaust POML is 114 crank degrees BTDC.

    *This assumes lobes with symmetrical flanks. Camshafts having asymmetrical lobes with do not necessarily have LSA's which are co-incident with [(intake LCL) + (exhaust LCL)]/2, because their POML do not necessarily occur at the centerline of the lobes.

    Comment

    • Ian G.
      Extremely Frequent Poster
      • September 3, 2007
      • 1114

      #47
      Re: need valve lash advise if I don't know the cam

      CAM FIGHT!!!

      Do I need to get you guys a pair of nerf bats so you can wallop each other?

      Comment

      • Michael H.
        Expired
        • January 29, 2008
        • 7477

        #48
        Re: need valve lash advise if I don't know the cam

        Originally posted by Ian Gaston (47813)
        CAM FIGHT!!!

        Do I need to get you guys a pair of nerf bats so you can wallop each other?

        They do this at least once every few months Ian. No need to be concerned. They actually live in opposite corners of the country so it probably won't go beyond typing.

        Duke and I used to "duke it out" pretty good here too about that LT1 cam but we haven't had a good one for quite a while. I kinda miss the LT1 cam wars though.

        Glad I exited the debate before things got too hot.

        I saved ALL of our "LT1 cam fights" in a folder and there's quite a collection.

        Comment

        • Joe C.
          Expired
          • August 31, 1999
          • 4598

          #49
          Re: need valve lash advise if I don't know the cam

          Originally posted by Michael Hanson (4067)
          They do this at least once every few months Ian. No need to be concerned. They actually live in opposite corners of the country so it probably won't go beyond typing.

          Duke and I used to "duke it out" pretty good here too about that LT1 cam but we haven't hade a good one for quite a while. I kinda miss the LT1 cam wars though.

          Glad I exited the debate before things got too hot.

          I saved ALL of our "LT1 cam fights" in a folder and there's quite a collection.
          Not true.
          Missiles have been deployed.

          Comment

          • Duke W.
            Beyond Control Poster
            • January 1, 1993
            • 15610

            #50
            Re: need valve lash advise if I don't know the cam

            Originally posted by Joe Ciaravino (32899)
            There you go again. You know, for someone who is always critical of others' writing style, ability, punctuation, syntax, and usage, you certainly do resort to speaking in colloquialisms whenever you are angry. This, of course, occurs with regularity whenever you are challenged in your pontifications. You should concentrate on the business at hand, rather than trying to divert attention by testing others' knowledge. I'll respond to your "smoke and mirrors" discourse, in kind. I trust that most folks on board, here, will follow along.

            As you know, a cam's LSA (lobe separation angle), defines the number of camshaft degrees separating the intake's POML (point of max lift) from that of the exhaust, and since the camshaft rotates at one-half the rate of the crankshaft, then a hypothetical camshaft with 110 LSA would be one in which the POML of the intake and exhaust would be separated by 220 crankshaft degrees. When a camshaft is neither advanced nor retarded relative to the crank, its intake's POML is the same number of crankshaft degrees ATDC as the exhaust valves' are BTDC.* So, the hypothetical camshaft whose LSA is 110 degrees, and is installed neither advanced nor retarded, would be one whose intake valves' LCL (lobe centerline), or POML are 110 crankshaft degrees ATDC, and whose exhaust valves' LCL, or POML are 110 crankshaft degrees BTDC.

            When a camshaft is specified as having a certain LSA, this does not in itself define the opening and closing events of the valves. The cam's timing relative to the crank must be specified, and most camshafts are manufactured with some degree of advance built in, generally between 2 and 8, with 4-6 being the most common. Look again at the hypothetical camshaft with 110 degree LSA, assume that it is ground with 4 degrees advance. If it is installed in the engine with its index mark directly opposite that of the crankshaft, then its intake POML is 106 crankshaft degrees ATDC and its exhaust POML is 114 crank degrees BTDC.

            *This assumes lobes with symmetrical flanks. Camshafts having asymmetrical lobes with do not necessarily have LSA's which are co-incident with [(intake LCL) + (exhaust LCL)]/2, because their POML do not necessarily occur at the centerline of the lobes.
            Tell us how you would communicate specifications to cam grinder for a custom cam. Assume you are using lobes from their library. Beyond specifying the lobe ID number(s), what would you tell them.

            Duke

            Comment

            • William V.
              Expired
              • December 1, 1988
              • 399

              #51
              Re: need valve lash advise if I don't know the cam

              Ian

              I have identified aftermarket cams by the grind number which is stamped on the front under the cam timing chain sprocket. If you still have the engine disassembled, removing the timing chain cover is not too much more work. I'm not sure if GM cams have a tracable number located in this location.

              Thanks

              BV

              Comment

              • Joe C.
                Expired
                • August 31, 1999
                • 4598

                #52
                Re: need valve lash advise if I don't know the cam

                Tell us how you would communicate specifications to cam grinder for a custom cam. Assume you are using lobes from their library. Beyond specifying the lobe ID number(s), what would you tell them.



                No..........you're not playing nice!
                Now, take your bat and ball, Dukie boy, and go home! Otherwise, no dinner for you tonight.

                Comment

                • Ian G.
                  Extremely Frequent Poster
                  • September 3, 2007
                  • 1114

                  #53
                  Re: need valve lash advise if I don't know the cam

                  You guys aught to agree to disagree Both of you obviously know your stuff and just have different perspectives on what constitutes performance.

                  Comment

                  • Ian G.
                    Extremely Frequent Poster
                    • September 3, 2007
                    • 1114

                    #54
                    Re: need valve lash advise if I don't know the cam

                    hey Bill,

                    I have ordered a Lunati Duntov clone cam CS113R. I'm looking at having the whole engine rebuilt though, so that I can change out the stock pistons with stronger eagle ones and get higher performance pistons. I'll start a new thread when I undoubtabley will need advise.

                    ~ian

                    Comment

                    • Duke W.
                      Beyond Control Poster
                      • January 1, 1993
                      • 15610

                      #55
                      Re: need valve lash advise if I don't know the cam

                      Originally posted by Joe Ciaravino (32899)
                      Tell us how you would communicate specifications to cam grinder for a custom cam. Assume you are using lobes from their library. Beyond specifying the lobe ID number(s), what would you tell them.



                      No..........you're not playing nice!
                      Now, take your bat and ball, Dukie boy, and go home! Otherwise, no dinner for you tonight.
                      I can only assume that you can't answer this simple question.

                      Duke

                      Comment

                      • Michael H.
                        Expired
                        • January 29, 2008
                        • 7477

                        #56
                        Re: need valve lash advise if I don't know the cam

                        Originally posted by Ian Gaston (47813)
                        hey Bill,

                        I have ordered a Lunati Duntov clone cam CS113R. I'm looking at having the whole engine rebuilt though, so that I can change out the stock pistons with stronger eagle ones and get higher performance pistons. I'll start a new thread when I undoubtabley will need advise.

                        ~ian
                        Sounds good Ian. Good luck with your project.

                        Comment

                        • Stuart F.
                          Expired
                          • August 31, 1996
                          • 4676

                          #57
                          Re: need valve lash advise if I don't know the cam

                          I wish I had a dollar for every 30-30 or LT-1 cam equipped Vette I've put behind me with my Duntov equipped 63. Of course it was all gearing, but a blow off on the road is a blow off (not talking drag strip here).

                          BTW: is it "Rock of Gibraltar" or "Rock of Gilbralter"? Actually I googled it and both are correct (Go Figure).

                          Stu Fox

                          Comment

                          • William V.
                            Expired
                            • December 1, 1988
                            • 399

                            #58
                            Re: need valve lash advise if I don't know the cam

                            Originally posted by Ian Gaston (47813)
                            hey Bill,

                            I have ordered a Lunati Duntov clone cam CS113R. I'm looking at having the whole engine rebuilt though, so that I can change out the stock pistons with stronger eagle ones and get higher performance pistons. I'll start a new thread when I undoubtabley will need advise.

                            ~ian
                            Ian

                            I just built a sweet running small block stroker using a SCAT rotating assy. Steel forged crank "H" beam rods and KB pistons. The rotating assy is rated for 8000rpm and 800hp. A top sprint car crew chief given me the heads up about SCAT. I suggest you check them out.

                            Good luck

                            BV

                            Comment

                            • Joe C.
                              Expired
                              • August 31, 1999
                              • 4598

                              #59
                              Re: need valve lash advise if I don't know the cam

                              Originally posted by Stuart Fox (28060)
                              I wish I had a dollar for every 30-30 or LT-1 cam equipped Vette I've put behind me with my Duntov equipped 63. Of course it was all gearing, but a blow off on the road is a blow off (not talking drag strip here).

                              BTW: is it "Rock of Gibraltar" or "Rock of Gilbralter"? Actually I googled it and both are correct (Go Figure).

                              Stu Fox
                              Right.......... but "Gilbrater" isn't.

                              Comment

                              • Joe C.
                                Expired
                                • August 31, 1999
                                • 4598

                                #60
                                Re: need valve lash advise if I don't know the cam

                                Originally posted by Duke Williams (22045)
                                I can only assume that you can't answer this simple question.

                                Duke

                                Never assume............you know what happens when you assume...........
                                Actually, too easy!
                                I'd tell him to "make me an LT1 universal replacement" cam.

                                Comment

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