Judging Question?

[David J.]

Let's say you have a 1966 all original car. Let's say it has low mileage. The car needs paint and a number of other items but nothing that would make it a candidate for a frame off resto. When it comes to the original engine you think to your self if I restore the original engine and it blows up IE, window in the side of the block then the value would be decreased. I would really like to drive this car a little and have it judged. How does a judge look at this situation? Judge what is in front of him with out the original motor or is there some consideration made. Or should the original engine be restored and don't worry about it?

[Patrick H.]

Re: Judging Question?

David,

Just how original is it? How low are the miles?

Is it original enough that you ought to bring it out and have it evaluated for Bowtie judging? If it's as original as you say it is, even if you're not thinking Bowtie I would recommend having it judged as-is by your local Chapter - or Regional if one is nearby. For a small cost you can have a number of people look at it and get a variety of opinions.

Understand that some people really like all-original cars. Your car can always be restored, but it's only original once. You may take it out and find out it's more valuable in its current state.

Post some pictures if you have the chance. That always helps.

FYI, I've driven my Bowtie car quite a bit over several states and even into Canada. It's very enjoyable and I really don't spend a lot of time worrying about it. Yes, I worry more than with my still-can-buy-new-parts-for-it 08, but it's way too nice of a driver to sit full-time in my barn.

Patrick

PS.
When it comes to judging, you are always, always better off with the original engine.

[Michael W.]

Re: Judging Question?

If it's got low mileage, why would the engine need to be restored?

Do you mean external cosmetics or internal remachining?

[Edward B.]

Re: Judging Question?

How many times does a "stock" engine actually "blow?" Usually destruction like that is limited to engines that have been tweeked, neglected or run extremly hard. I would drive the original engine without fear knowing the percentages are on my side.

[Joel F.]

Re: Judging Question?

How many times does a "stock" engine actually "blow?" Usually destruction like that is limited to engines that have been tweeked, neglected or run extremly hard. I would drive the original engine without fear knowing the percentages are on my side.

I agree, unless you are routinely exceeding the redline, you should be ok as long as you do not skimp on the rebuild. Look into previous posts by Duke Williams and others regarding small journal connecting rods. These are a potential point of failure and can be upgraded for a modest price (compared to a crate engine).

[Bill M.]

Re: Judging Question?

How many times does a "stock" engine actually "blow?" Usually destruction like that is limited to engines that have been tweeked, neglected or run extremly hard. I would drive the original engine without fear knowing the percentages are on my side.

I agree. Production engine designs are run for 200 hours on a dynamometer with maybe half the time at full throttle. The production part design is almost bulletproof.

You can break a production engine by over-revving if you have mechanical lifters, or running it out of oil (can be done with the oil full if you autocross on sticky tires).

[Jack H.]

Re: Judging Question?

First, we hear the term 'ALL ORIGINAL' frequently but it seldom winds up being true... Almost always 'some' parts were replaced on cars during their street use years (air cleaner filter, oil filter, water pump, fuel pump, Etc.).

BUT, in keeping with the facts presented in your thread (ALL ORIGINAL), I'd question the need to 'restore' ANYTHING on the car! At NCRS (and NCCB, Bloomington Gold), there are two separate and distinct judging/recognition programs: one for restored cars and another for unrestored cars.

Restored cars are pretty common, but that true, award winning, unrestored car is quite RARE indeed. So, before jumping in and changing ANYTHING on such a car, the owner should spend time understanding the differences in the two avenues of award campaign and decide if it really makes sense to 'restore' the candidate vehicle.

Essentially, it's a one way door...once you start down the path of changing/improving this/that, you can't go back! A car is only 'original' once in its life...

On the question of how judges look at a car, it's simple. The car is considered complete and ready to judge once the owner places it on the judging field. Judges look at the car 'as presented' and contrast what they see to our standards which embody how the typical Corvette would have been delivered to the original owner, including then current dealer prep, as it was originally manufactured by GM absent any dealer/owner inspired configuration changes (option addition/deletion).

So, a detectable non-original motor (NOM) will garner judging deduction(s) as provided by the NCRS Judging Reference Manuals rules (Standard Deduction section). This could range from a full deduction (350 points out of 4500 possible) to as few as 25 points depending on how closely the replacement block resembles the original.

The fact that an owner pulled the original motor and has it set aside in storage, means nothing. That was his/her choice and judges can only go by what they see today...

Last, as others have said, there's very little you can do to DESTROY an original engine. Yes, you can have problems that will damage the engine, but most any damage done CAN be repaired...

[David J.]

Re: Judging Question?

David,

Just how original is it? How low are the miles?

Is it original enough that you ought to bring it out and have it evaluated for Bowtie judging? If it's as original as you say it is, even if you're not thinking Bowtie I would recommend having it judged as-is by your local Chapter - or Regional if one is nearby. For a small cost you can have a number of people look at it and get a variety of opinions.

Understand that some people really like all-original cars. Your car can always be restored, but it's only original once. You may take it out and find out it's more valuable in its current state.

Post some pictures if you have the chance. That always helps.

FYI, I've driven my Bowtie car quite a bit over several states and even into Canada. It's very enjoyable and I really don't spend a lot of time worrying about it. Yes, I worry more than with my still-can-buy-new-parts-for-it 08, but it's way too nice of a driver to sit full-time in my barn.

Patrick

PS.
When it comes to judging, you are always, always better off with the original engine.

Thank you for your response. Let me answer some of your questions. When I purchased the car several years ago I did not know any thing about the judging process and I felt that since the paint was shot and the chrome was pitted that there would no way or any reason to have it judged. The car has 65700 original miles on it. I purchased the car from the original owner. The first picture is of the day I hauled the car home. I believe the car is all original based on my conversation with the widow, paper work and inspecting the vehicle. I have been working on stripping the paint off to get the body ready for paint. I have got all of the chrome and brite work re-plated or replaced. The other concern is that if I restore the original engine I should consider lowering the compression. One of your questions was regarding the engine with low miles and why I felt the need to restore it. The reason is because the car sat for 35 years with out being run and the fuel tank had 3 inches of jelly in it. I can restore the engine but what about lowering the compression ? I would also change the cam shaft and put together a combination that will accommodate the entire package. I guess my concern is making these changes. I have been thinking it would be better to build a complete motor that will look, sound and run like the original but I would not have to worry about hurting the original motor.





Here the car is in it's current state.

[David J.]

Re: Judging Question?

If it's got low mileage, why would the engine need to be restored?

Do you mean external cosmetics or internal remachining?

Thank you for your responce. The car sat for 35 years with out being run and there was 3 inches of jelly in the fuel tank when I purchased it. The external cosmetics are a given. It needs cleaned up but it doesn't need a frame off resto.

[Michael W.]

Re: Judging Question?

Thank you for your responce. The car sat for 35 years with out being run and there was 3 inches of jelly in the fuel tank when I purchased it. The external cosmetics are a given. It needs cleaned up but it doesn't need a frame off resto.

Given the above, if the engine is not seized then there a 99% chance you don't need to disassemble anything at this point.

With the comments made in your previous post about reducing compression and changing the cam, it's possible that you've been given some inappropriate generic advice.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Judging Question?

I'd clean and repaint the motor and let it go. At most I'd replace the valve seals and/or guides. How many miles are you going to put on the car? Not likely enough to pass the 80,000 mile mark. So, why spend $5000 that can be better spent elsewhere (if at all)?

Patrick

Addendum -

The gas tank jelly may require that your carb be properly restored, but it shouldn't affect your motor internals at all. Consider having a leak down test done on the motor if you're really nervous about it, or check out the cylinders with a bore scope.

[David J.]

Re: Judging Question?

First, we hear the term 'ALL ORIGINAL' frequently but it seldom winds up being true... Almost always 'some' parts were replaced on cars during their street use years (air cleaner filter, oil filter, water pump, fuel pump, Etc.).

BUT, in keeping with the facts presented in your thread (ALL ORIGINAL), I'd question the need to 'restore' ANYTHING on the car! At NCRS (and NCCB, Bloomington Gold), there are two separate and distinct judging/recognition programs: one for restored cars and another for unrestored cars.

Restored cars are pretty common, but that true, award winning, unrestored car is quite RARE indeed. So, before jumping in and changing ANYTHING on such a car, the owner should spend time understanding the differences in the two avenues of award campaign and decide if it really makes sense to 'restore' the candidate vehicle.

Essentially, it's a one way door...once you start down the path of changing/improving this/that, you can't go back! A car is only 'original' once in its life...

On the question of how judges look at a car, it's simple. The car is considered complete and ready to judge once the owner places it on the judging field. Judges look at the car 'as presented' and contrast what they see to our standards which embody how the typical Corvette would have been delivered to the original owner, including then current dealer prep, as it was originally manufactured by GM absent any dealer/owner inspired configuration changes (option addition/deletion).

So, a detectable non-original motor (NOM) will garner judging deduction(s) as provided by the NCRS Judging Reference Manuals rules (Standard Deduction section). This could range from a full deduction (350 points out of 4500 possible) to as few as 25 points depending on how closely the replacement block resembles the original.

The fact that an owner pulled the original motor and has it set aside in storage, means nothing. That was his/her choice and judges can only go by what they see today...

Last, as others have said, there's very little you can do to DESTROY an original engine. Yes, you can have problems that will damage the engine, but most any damage done CAN be repaired...

Thank you for the information. After reading your post I am starting to rethink my plan. My concerns about lowering the compression is more directed at the fuel that is available to run the vehicle. My thought was dealing with unleaded fuel and octane. What is your recomendation ?

[John H.]

Re: Judging Question?

Thank you for the information. After reading your post I am starting to rethink my plan. My concerns about lowering the compression is more directed at the fuel that is available to run the vehicle. My thought was dealing with unleaded fuel and octane.

There is no need to reduce the compression (which will make it a turd). It will run fine in its original configuration on 93-octane pump fuel if it's tuned properly.

[Michael W.]

Re: Judging Question?

Thank you for the information. After reading your post I am starting to rethink my plan. My concerns about lowering the compression is more directed at the fuel that is available to run the vehicle. My thought was dealing with unleaded fuel and octane. What is your recomendation ?

It is unfortunate that there is a popular myth regarding the need for leaded fuel in older cars to avoid engine damage- it's false.

As John has stated your car will run fine on 93 unleaded.

BTW- what's the strange looking addition to the radiator overflow hose?

[David J.]

Re: Judging Question?

There is no need to reduce the compression (which will make it a turd). It will run fine in its original configuration on 93-octane pump fuel if it's tuned properly.

Thank you for your reply. My question is how does and engine not designed to run on unleaded fuel survive. These engines do not have harden valve seats. At the very least the heads would have to have harden seats installed. Where do you find 93 octane. The best I have every found was 92 octane and the next option would be race gas. I am in Southern California living around the eco friendly crowd wack jobs.