Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

[Mark F.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

I can recall once judging a midyear with sidepipes, on grass, laying on the ground. I'm trying to talk "under" the car with the other judge, and the owner has his face inches from mine trying to ask questions, comment, etc. I know he just wanted to know what we were discussing, but I did politely ask him to step back and wait until we were done. There's a limit once they invade your "personal space."

Patrick

Patrick, If I were a judge, that would annoy me too, especially if he had bad breath. :-)

Like anything else, it's a balance....assessing the judges "personality", listening but not hampering, and creating enought space for the judges, but not so much the owner can't hear/learn. With all the cars I have had judged, my only aim has been a TF, so being able to chill throughout the judging process was relatively easy.

So let me get your take on this scenario.

My aim now is a Duntov for my 65 fuel car. Every point deduction now takes on a different meaning when you are trying to score 97% on a mostly original car. When I had it judged at the Las Vegas Regional in 2007, there were a lot of BS points taken where they should not have been. A lot. As just one example, the left side/outboard side of the inner fender has a couple of small brackets that hold the air cleaner. Old judging manuals said that there must be undercoating on these. My edition (purple) says that they could be either undercoated or not. This new info was based on some very original, low mileage fuel cars that surfaced. My bracket is original and has no undercoating on it, yet contrary to that and to what was written in the JM, I was dinged for not having undercoating. Because I was just there for the Top Flight, I didn't challenge, but with the Duntov it will have to be different.

So, as a judge, would you perfer that I open the JM at that moment, or would you prefer I do it afterwards while we are reviewing the sheets? Either way, you will probably spend the same amount of total time with me, unless of course you punt me over to the team leader. If you punt, then I think we have all lost because, you do not get the education you need as a judge, the team leader then needs to confer with you to figure out what the issue is (taking more time), and I feel unloved. :-)

What do you think?

[Tom P.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

Tom -- I can absolutely tell you attitudes, and more importantly for you the score sheets have changed over the last 20+ years. Not everyone's attitude has changed, but most have.

There are a lot of other engine components that will get judged, for better or worse, after the 350-point loss for the wrong casting number. There is not too many points assigned to the transmission, however the gearshift will lose points on the interior. I would have to do some research on how we treat the color and pattern interior situation -- but bottom line you might want to give us another chance. We have been working for a long time to make it a kinder and gentler NCRS -- we still don't give the awards away, but we do try to make it a pleasant experience.

Terry,
First I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER had any grief (as I mentioned above) with the way the car was scored. I really saw it coming, I had a totally open mind, and even though I expected the low score, I still had my fingers crossed behing me (but it didn't help ). Also, I always understood the STANDARD was "as built out the back door of St. Louis".
Today, I can absolutely guarantee you that the car would score even less.
First, because the entire car has aged since St. Louis and Joplin. Second, I have made even more changes. Back then, the 350 that was in the car had a set of "correct" 2x4 carbs and hardware. Today, it has a significantly modified SB400 and FI unit, 57 Airbox and HD brakes which has been assembled from later model GM brake drums (mid-70s GM A-body station wagon rear drums).
CLEARLY, many attitudes have changed over the past years---------------------but I just never understood why the attitudes existed to begin with!!!!
Therefore, as I also previously mentioned, the ONLY way the car would have a "Chinaman's chance", would be a TOTAL disassembly, body removal, and start from scratch.

[Steven B.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

Nearly 45 years ago I bought my '57 and in the couple of years that followed I was over and under of that thing hundreds of times and soon convinced myself I knew everything there was to know about it. I was also certain it was the best and most original '57 in existance.

Last year I attended the Judging Retreat in Dallas/Fort Worth and traded for a spot judging a '57. (Thanks John St. Peter for allowing me to do it.) John St. Peter and Marilyn Heitzman were among the team and my judging partner was John Waggoner. Part of the "training" was how to interface and treat the judged cars owner. I was impressed as it was very positive, emphasized respect and trading knowledge. I really put that to the test as I asked numerous questions and was impressed with the enthusiasm of the team's answers to me. Marilyn even went out of her way asking others on other teams about a question I had on when the hardtop mounting and antennae holes were drilled. Both John St. Peter and John Waggoner answered questions which were endless and explained the why's and why not's. During the paint and body session, and after the session, Tom Ames did likewise answering a number of questions for me. Additional questions were answered weeks later by email ofthe team.

From that experience I took away a very positive impression of and great respect for people who went out of their way to help me learn about my car and asked me the history of it. Numerous others made the same comment about their experience.

I just want to say thanks to all out there, judges and TDB members, who go out of their way to share knowledge and in such a positive manner.

Thanks!

Steve

[Patrick H.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

So let me get your take on this scenario.

My aim now is a Duntov for my 65 fuel car. Every point deduction now takes on a different meaning when you are trying to score 97% on a mostly original car. When I had it judged at the Las Vegas Regional in 2007, there were a lot of BS points taken where they should not have been. A lot. As just one example, the left side/outboard side of the inner fender has a couple of small brackets that hold the air cleaner. Old judging manuals said that there must be undercoating on these. My edition (purple) says that they could be either undercoated or not. This new info was based on some very original, low mileage fuel cars that surfaced. My bracket is original and has no undercoating on it, yet contrary to that and to what was written in the JM, I was dinged for not having undercoating. Because I was just there for the Top Flight, I didn't challenge, but with the Duntov it will have to be different.

So, as a judge, would you prefer that I open the JM at that moment, or would you prefer I do it afterward while we are reviewing the sheets? Either way, you will probably spend the same amount of total time with me, unless of course you punt me over to the team leader. If you punt, then I think we have all lost because, you do not get the education you need as a judge, the team leader then needs to confer with you to figure out what the issue is (taking more time), and I feel unloved. :-)

What do you think?

Mark,

I'll try to say this one to offend the least number of people possible. I mention it because of the first sentence I've quoted above.



In my experience as a judge, if I was going to categorize what I see, the owners that are the least enjoyable to work with are those attempting a Duntov Award. Every single point becomes a battle, and it can make for a "less than pleasant" day. I fully understand their quest and the need to get the 97% but some push very hard when the team has made very fair deductions, and it can sour the judges' attitude toward the owner. I always try to be fair when making deductions but when every onesie or twosie becomes a 5 minute discussion, well....
And yes, I've also met many wonderful owners along the way who were attempting to get a Duntov Award.

Anyway, in the scenario you describe above I would still prefer that the discussion wait. When I judge chassis (my usual) and my partner is also skilled, I can often fly thru a chassis in a very short amount of time, and then come back to the score sheet and write my comments and deductions. In this case I'm not even commenting on your bracket (or similar) until I confer with you at the end. I haven't even mentioned it to you as I was crawling under the car. At the "end conference" time I'm in the correct frame of mind to show you anything I see or explain any "non-TFP" items that I've mentioned.

I know what you mean about the "BS" points. I know judges who do this, and I don't necessarily agree. It's not my style. Unfortunately that may just be "luck of the draw" for you on the day you have your car judged and the judges who happened to be assigned. I've had a couple of these judges for my car too but in the end it did not significantly affect my score. It has, however, helped me as a judge.

I hope that you found a bit of my writing useful.

Patrick

[Mark F.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

Mark,

I know what you mean about the "BS" points. I know judges who do this, and I don't necessarily agree. It's not my style. Unfortunately that may just be "luck of the draw" for you on the day you have your car judged and the judges who happened to be assigned. I've had a couple of these judges for my car too but in the end it did not significantly affect my score. It has, however, helped me as a judge.

I hope that you found a bit of my writing useful.

Patrick

Patrick,

Thanks for your insights. I can easily see what you say about judging Duntov-hopeful cars, but I have seen that behavior from owners who are just flight judging too.

The obvious solution here is two-fold: 1) Mandatory cross-sensitivity training for judges and owners in the Duntov process; and 2) for you to judge 65 chassis at the National in SJ. :-)

Cheers!

[Michael H.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

I would still prefer that the discussion wait. When I judge chassis (my usual) and my partner is also skilled, I can often fly thru a chassis in a very short amount of time, and then come back to the score sheet and write my comments and deductions.

In an event that we held back in the early 80's, (not NCRS) we had one extra person (me) on hand to "explain" the deductions that the judges recorded.
After the three judges were finished judging the car, they moved on to the next car and I stayed to discuss/explain their deductions.
I had time to chat with the owners and the team wasn't slowed down because they had to explain each deduct.

By the time the owner and I had discussed the deductions, the team was moving on to the next car so I moved on to the next owner. The team was always one car ahead of me.

I wonder if something like this would work at a National event?

[Reba W.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

I agree with Patrick one-hundred percent. Nothing slows the process down like an owner overhearing what the two judges are discussing and wanting in on the conversation. I have even had to ask the team leader to request that an owner stand back until we finish. An overly attentive owner will not win any points with most judges.

When finished, I take time to discuss everything and answer questions about why the deductions have been made. But as Terry said, there is a great deal of difference when there are three cars and when there are eight to get through. There was one owner wanted to keep venting after we had finished and he had signed the sheets. My partner and I turned him over to the team leader because we had three more cars to judge. Both the Owner's Advisory and Judging Reference Manual should be read by all entrants before the meet as they explain the process of disagreeing and appealing.

As chapter judging chair, I emphasize in the owners' meeting to let the judges work and then ask the questions. Sometimes that works, sometimes not.

[Mark F.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

In an event that we held back in the early 80's, (not NCRS) we had one extra person (me) on hand to "explain" the deductions that the judges recorded.
After the three judges were finished judging the car, they moved on to the next car and I stayed to discuss/explain their deductions.
I had time to chat with the owners and the team wasn't slowed down because they had to explain each deduct.

By the time the owner and I had discussed the deductions, the team was moving on to the next car so I moved on to the next owner. The team was always one car ahead of me.

I wonder if something like this would work at a National event?

Michael, that actually makes a lot of sense to me, but not just at National events, rather both Regional and National. The "Judging Team Liaison" would have to be pretty knowledgeable and pay close attention to the judging that is in progress. Did I mention a thick skin as well?

Maybe Terry M. could opine on this idea.

[Ridge K.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

In an event that we held back in the early 80's, (not NCRS) we had one extra person (me) on hand to "explain" the deductions that the judges recorded.
After the three judges were finished judging the car, they moved on to the next car and I stayed to discuss/explain their deductions.
I had time to chat with the owners and the team wasn't slowed down because they had to explain each deduct.

By the time the owner and I had discussed the deductions, the team was moving on to the next car so I moved on to the next owner. The team was always one car ahead of me.

I wonder if something like this would work at a National event?

Thanks Mike for that insight.
Concerning this concept of a person (yourself in the case you described, other than the actual judges) holding the discuss/explain conversations with the car owner, were any point deducts changed, based on infromation learned from the car owner?
Just curious how that would work, as I have heard of a few instances where judges actually changed a point deduct, based on information/documentation supplied by the car owner/member. I can see an issue if a person made a point change, that hadn't actually judged the car, other than the team leader, or judging chairman.
Thanks, Ridge

[Reba W.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

I have occasionally used an observer judge to do the explanantion IF he has done some judging and has heard our comments, not if he/she is a beginner. And no, that person could not change any point deduction, but he could bring an item to the attention of the two judges. An observer judge cannot contribute to the deduction process.

[Ridge K.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

I have occasionally used an observer judge to do the explanantion IF he has done some judging and has heard our comments, not if he/she is a beginner. And no, that person could not change any point deduction, but he could bring an item to the attention of the two judges. An observer judge cannot contribute to the deduction process.

Thank you for that clarification Reba. That's how I thought it would work.
Here's how it sounds to me.
The observer judge handling the discussion with the car owner, could be very helpful in explaining to the owner how the decisions were arrived during the judging process, but, this would take the option out of play of a possible point deduction reversal, in the advent that the owner has a strong, and valid point concerning the matter. Of course, the owner could take his or her case to the judging chairman, but one would potentially lose the ability to quickly look at the issue on the car again, and possibly correct an error in judging.
Probably not likely to be an issue, and a reversal is probably very rare, but,..........
Just a thought.
Thanks again, very much. Ridge.

[Rick S.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

When I had my car judged for the first time, I commented to my daughter and a friend that it looked like a swarm of bees at the hive. There were 2 separate teams judging the car at the same time and after one team just finished, the ops team showed up. It was almost comical as they seemed to be fighting for space so as to be able to complete their tasks. At one point, I think a judged got stepped on while under the car. I found that I couldn't ask many questions because of the flurry of activity. I also had to explain during this hectic time, why there was a typo trim tag and to present the documentation to prove my case. I wish I had more time to listen to the judges comments but it just wasn't possible. Too much going on all at once! I found it to be a positive experience and had no complaints about the judging or the conduct of the judges.

Rick

[Terry M.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

Hi all,

I am writing this post as a learning tool for all of the new folks on here who are contemplating having their car judged in the near future or who might be thinking about having it done down the road.

Craig,
Thank you for posting this -- it has turned into a most interesting thread.

Mike,
The idea of someone to spend some quality time with the car owner(s) is a good one -- but I would suggest that it would take a person with real serious diplomatic and judging skills to do the job. I think it would be worth trying, none the less. Excellent suggestion.

[M W.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

Craig,
Thank you for posting this -- it has turned into a most interesting thread.

Thanks very much Terry. I appreciate everyone's response so far and more importantly we are able to discuss a matter which is important to all of us.

Kindest regards to all,
Craig Willetts

[M W.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

Thanks again to all who posted on this thread. It was a very informative posting by all and hopefully will give each of us a bit more incite as to the proper protocol during these events.

All the best,
Craig W.