Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

[M W.]

Hi all,

I am writing this post as a learning tool for all of the new folks on here who are contemplating having their car judged in the near future or who might be thinking about having it done down the road. Keep in mind it's only my perspective but I feel it's needed and should be addressed to all of us. Having had my car judged four times now which is certainly less than some and certainly more than others I have definitely learned a great deal along the way and thought I would share a thing or two with you.

While all of us buy the books, manuals, paperbacks..etc on how our cars were built originally many of us fail to realize what goes on behind the scenes at the different events once we are there to have our cars judged. There are so many fine men and women who devote a great deal of time, money and effort to make our hobby and passion what it is today. All of the judges spend countless hours attending seminars, judging cars, writing books, posting on here whenever needed and so we can earn that Blue Ribbon. We as car owners become so attached to these cars that while our car's are being judged we take things to personal and thus the anger or frustration is directed at our fellow members who are doing the judging. We all seem to think we know it all and the judges are all incorrect. I do speak from experience a bit here. During the last meet I did get a bit angry over a few items and now looking back I honestly think how childish that was. It is best to just let the judges do their duties and have them go over each item with you when finished. If you have a dispute try to resolve it with them peacefully. If not there are those in charge at these meets who will sit and listen and more importantly if you have a good case they may rule in your favor. Being a bully during the judging process does not work. It only hampers the judging process and what you ultimately hope to obtain. The Blue Ribbon. My advise and remember A.holes are like opinions. Everyone has one is to bring a super comfortable chair, book, magazine..etc and when it's your turn to be judged move completely away from your car. Let them do the judging and if your are needed come and assist. Otherwise being somewhat removed makes everyone happy. Enjoy the moment and remember all the time spent in the garage is now being put to the test. It's all a learning process. Being in aviation for nearly 22 years one thing I have come to learn and that is if you stop learning it's time to quit. Watch these fine judges, listen to them and get involved. I would imagine being on the other side you see things from a totally different perspective. No matter how much arguing you do or getting in the way if your car isn't a Top Flight candidate it simply isn't a Top Flight car. If you have done your homework it will be and you can sit back and smile. When I look at my Top Flight awards at home in my garage I am so very thankful to so many of you who have helped me along the way. It would not have been possible without you.

I want to personally apologize to anyone whom I may have spoken impolitely to or gotten in your way during any meet. I really enjoy going to these events, meeting all of the fine people who are in front and behind the scenes who make these meets so enjoyable. This is a great hobby so please enjoy it all without taking things to personal. Nothing is promised to us so enjoy it all. Remember it's only a CAR.

Thanks again to all who helped me achieve my fourth Top Flight while in Florida. I look forward to the next event and seeing each of you again.

Many Blessings,
Craig Willetts
1964 Roadster
#36551

[Bill I.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

VERY well written Craig, Thanks, I'm sure we all can learn from your post. Bill.

[Jeff W.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

Crig, thanks for taking the time to remind all of us that the volunteers are just that, free to our sport. Even though we tend to forget the $1000's of dollars that the judges have invested of their own money to create the enviroment for us to get our ribbons.
Jeff

[Gary C.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

Craig, good write up. Congrats. Saw you get your blue ribbon at the Florida Regional banquet.
One thing I would add to your write up is to download the scoresheets and use the Judging Manual to preJudge your car multiple times. No one should know your car better than you do when this is done. This will give you a list of things to resolve. And when in question about a particular item contact the Team Leader. Regards, Gary....

[Jim W.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

Very sound advice Craig, When i had my 79 judged I lowered the spare tire, and just stood off to one side. When asked about something I answered as best as I could. And the nice thing was the judges were fair to me. During the operational test, I had everything working including the AM/FM cassette deck radio, But I had forgot to bring a cassette to play? Well the husband and wife doing the test, said not to worry and the nice lady went to her 73 roaster and got a cassette, I popped it in and it played and I passed the test.

Same thing once inside as the judges noted that the engine was bainted GM blue, but not the original blue from St. louis, so they deducted a point, they could of deducted more than one single point, but the judge told me that in this day and age, getting the exact color is near impossible, so they weren't going to hit me too hard on something out of my control. The NCRS judges have a difficult job and try to meet you halfway on many items.

[Tom H.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

Your advise should be read at every meet at an owners meeting. Make the announcement that everyone is here to achieve the same goal in a peaceful manner in the spirit of fun !!

[Stuart F.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

I guess you could say; we all know whats right and we all try to do whats right, but it is an emotional issue. You've invested a lot of yourself in your car, both in time and money. The research and investigating to find just the right part, etc. I'm sure we all understand that and have to be prepared to be compassionate and understanding with each other. It is still a subjective process and you know you will never have the same outcome in judging from different teams of judges. We're all human. As was said before, sit back and enjoy the process. You will learn something every time, and perhaps you will impart some of that wisdom to someone else as well in the process.

I think one of the most impressive things I have witnessed is when some one shows up for judging with a car that is definitely a work in process with many flaws an incorrect parts, etc. To see and hear the judges treat the owner and his car with the same level of respect as they would someone with a 99 point trailer queen. They encourage the owner by doing this, "imparting their wisdom" and, as a result, that owner will remain in the hobby and perhaps come back with a Top Fight quality car some day.

Stu Fox

[Mark F.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

when it's your turn to be judged move completely away from your car. Let them do the judging and if your are needed come and assist. Otherwise being somewhat removed makes everyone happy.

Hi Craig

I agree with you that not taking it personal is the right way to do things. The cars we bring to these events "are what they are", so the judging process "is what it is" up until the point where personalities get involved. I have been through a number of judging events, I think 6 or 7 now, and I have never had a bad experience or had any tempers flare.

I would disagree with your statement about walking away during the judging process. You lose the opportunity to have a really good learning session from some very knowledgeable judges. We all know that at the end when we are called over to review the sheets with the judges, the process is too quick, and consequently, a meaninful exchange on a discussion point is as impactful.

At these events, there is a mix of judges. There are those who encourage you to be near because they like to teach and those who would rather you take your advice about the book and chair. Fortunately, the judges who like to teach far out number the latter, who sometimes "encourage" you to sit back (in your chair with a book). I believe the spirit of the NCRS is abot learning and having fun. I do not believe you should ever be chased away from your car during the judging process.

It is incumbant upon each car owner to know your car well, inside and out, so that if there are discussion points, you are making the correct ones, supported by documention or references. For many who have their first car, this isn't possible, so for them, you should just watch quietly and absorb during the judging event. For those with more knowledge of their cars, know where your discussion points are and be ready with documentation or references.

Cheers!

[Patrick H.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

Hi Craig

I agree with you that not taking it personal is the right way to do things. The cars we bring to these events "are what they are", so the judging process "is what it is" up until the point where personalities get involved. I have been through a number of judging events, I think 6 or 7 now, and I have never had a bad experience or had any tempers flare.

I would disagree with your statement about walking away during the judging process. You lose the opportunity to have a really good learning session from some very knowledgeable judges. We all know that at the end when we are called over to review the sheets with the judges, the process is too quick, and consequently, a meaninful exchange on a discussion point is as impactful.

At these events, there is a mix of judges. There are those who encourage you to be near because they like to teach and those who would rather you take your advice about the book and chair. Fortunately, the judges who like to teach far out number the latter, who sometimes "encourage" you to sit back (in your chair with a book). I believe the spirit of the NCRS is abot learning and having fun. I do not believe you should ever be chased away from your car during the judging process.

It is incumbant upon each car owner to know your car well, inside and out, so that if there are discussion points, you are making the correct ones, supported by documention or references. For many who have their first car, this isn't possible, so for them, you should just watch quietly and absorb during the judging event. For those with more knowledge of their cars, know where your discussion points are and be ready with documentation or references.

Cheers!

Mark,

From my perspective as a judge (and also having had a car run through the system) I prefer to do my "teaching time" after I've completed judging my section of a car. If I have an owner standing right by me asking questions and commenting frequently, it just slows things waaaaaay down. I always take the time to point out my thoughts and observations once it's done, and I inform the owners that I'll go over everything in detail at the end of my judging. Usually if I let them know before I ever start judging their car, it goes very well.

Patrick

[Tom P.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

I have a 56 car which has had as much attention to detail performed on it as a Top Flight car.
BUT, in a different direction.
Years ago, I had it judged on 2 different ocassions-------------never even made Third Flight! AND, I KNEW that it would not! I simply wanted to see where it would place in the judging process.
The car has its original body parts, and they're straight.
It has its original frame, chassis, suspension components.
It has its original seats, gauges, radio and clock---------all of which work. It has a correct soft and hard top.
When it was judged, it had the correct 15x5 wheels/full wheel covers.
The car had undergone a complete and thorough frameoff.
I bought the car in 73 (no NCRS at that time, and interest in original restoration of the older cars was nearly non-existant). I started taking the car apart in 74 with zero knowledge of NCRS (didn't join until 78).

Soooooooooooooooooo, why wouldn't the car at least Third Flight?
Probably the biggest hit in points was the engine. If the engine is wrong, NOTHING is right. Period, end of engine judging. ZERO points.
Tranny was worng (4sp instead of 3sp).
Paint is red, but wrong shade of red. ZERO points.
MANY, MANY, MANY of the original parts (suspension parts, steering column, soft top frame, etc, etc) are chrome instead of painted. ZERO points on condition. The interior is a "correct" Al Knoch repo interior (waffle/grain pattern and Daytona weave carpet), except it's red/black instead of red/beige. Another big hit.
Before being judged, I was TOTALLY, 100% aware of all of this. There were ZERO surprises (I had hoped for at least a Third Flight, but in my heart I know it wasn't going to happen). As I mentioned earlier, I just wanted to see where it would fall in the judging process. I found out.
Sooooooooooooooooo, what are my options? There are ZERO options. There is only one alternative. Do a total frame off again and go all the way back with it. AIN'T HAPNIN'!
What's my point with all of this then?
Hopefully, attitudes and viewpoints have changed within the judging community within the last 20+yrs, because when the car was judged by the "experts" 20+yrs ago, it was a VERY unpleasant experience, which to this day, still leaves a somewhat bitter taste in my mouth and a great deal of apprehension about certain NCRS members/segments that I interface with.
It's refreshing to read that recent experiences with judging, by some people, has seemingly been somewhat more pleasant.

[Terry M.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

Hopefully, attitudes and viewpoints have changed within the judging community within the last 20+yrs, because when the car was judged by the "experts" 20+yrs ago, it was a VERY unpleasant experience, which to this day, still leaves a somewhat bitter taste in my mouth and a great deal of apprehension about certain NCRS members/segments that I interface with.
It's refreshing to read that recent experiences with judging, by some people, has seemingly been somewhat more pleasant.

Tom -- I can absolutely tell you attitudes, and more importantly for you the score sheets have changed over the last 20+ years. Not everyone's attitude has changed, but most have.

There are a lot of other engine components that will get judged, for better or worse, after the 350-point loss for the wrong casting number. There is not too many points assigned to the transmission, however the gearshift will lose points on the interior. I would have to do some research on how we treat the color and pattern interior situation -- but bottom line you might want to give us another chance. We have been working for a long time to make it a kinder and gentler NCRS -- we still don't give the awards away, but we do try to make it a pleasant experience.

[Mark F.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

Mark,

From my perspective as a judge (and also having had a car run through the system) I prefer to do my "teaching time" after I've completed judging my section of a car. If I have an owner standing right by me asking questions and commenting frequently, it just slows things waaaaaay down. I always take the time to point out my thoughts and observations once it's done, and I inform the owners that I'll go over everything in detail at the end of my judging. Usually if I let them know before I ever start judging their car, it goes very well.

Patrick

Patrick, I agree with you, that asking a lot of questions slows things down and this is not what I am suggesting.

Members who do not have the experience, as I said, should quietly watch and absorb. More experienced owners who are on their game, should know where their discussion points are going to be and be prepared accordingly. Now this can happen afterwards, during the review process, but from my experience, it is not as valuable.

My point was simply that no owner should not be pushed away from the car, but I do know that this happens infrequently.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

Patrick, I agree with you, that asking a lot of questions slows things down and this is not what I am suggesting.

Members who do not have the experience, as I said, should quietly watch and absorb. More experienced owners who are on their game, should know where their discussion points are going to be and be prepared accordingly. Now this can happen afterwards, during the review process, but from my experience, it is not as valuable.

My point was simply that no owner should not be pushed away from the car, but I do know that this happens infrequently.

I can recall once judging a midyear with sidepipes, on grass, laying on the ground. I'm trying to talk "under" the car with the other judge, and the owner has his face inches from mine trying to ask questions, comment, etc. I know he just wanted to know what we were discussing, but I did politely ask him to step back and wait until we were done. There's a limit once they invade your "personal space."

Patrick

[Pat M.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

Members who do not have the experience, as I said, should quietly watch and absorb. More experienced owners who are on their game, should know where their discussion points are going to be and be prepared accordingly. Now this can happen afterwards, during the review process, but from my experience, it is not as valuable.

I agree 100%. Although EVERY judge I ever met was courteous and helpful, I have found that once the judging is complete the judges are a bit less willing to fully explain deductions and listen to the owners. This is perfectly understandable, because they have plenty of other cars to judge and would like to get to them. But I've found that polite, knowledgeable, infrequent questions regarding some deductions are much more likely to get an explanation, and sometimes even a reversal, during the judging process.

[Terry M.]

Re: Before You Have a Car Judged Please Read

Allow me to suggest that both the judges and owners should evaluate the judging venue and make a determination as to what works best for everyone. There is a big difference between a meet where there are 3 cars in the class and the situation when there are seven cars in the class.

Those people also need to assess the experience level of the judges and the owners. The less experienced owner can greatly benefit from a couple of extra minutes of the judge's time, but if the class is large and maybe it is the National Convention -- that time simply may not be available. On the other hand every owner will have been through at least one judging before the National.

As a National Team Leader I used to try to spend some extra time with less experienced owners. I always found it worked to everyone's advantage, but sometimes the pressure of the event didn't allow that luxury.

Then there are those folks (both judges and owners) whose personalities are such that every deduction is a major deal. I have seen some situations where no amount of diplomacy worked. In those cases one can only do whatever it takes to keep the circumstances from spiraling into disaster. Fortunately that didn't happen to me too often.

I don't think there are any hard and fast rules about how much learning can go on between owners and judges, except to say that the more that can be done to communicate information the better. Both judges and owners need some "breathing room."