Motor Oil

[Joe L.]

Re: Motor Oil

Ray, And to all,
The oil company's have taken Zinc out of oil last year, All solid lifter flat tappet cams need additive, and proper cam break in, it's a must,
Joe Gibbs racing oil is the best for flat tappet cams,
If you don't do this the lifters and cam lobes will not last!

Tom

Tom------


What I don't understand about this is even if all of the zinc high pressure additives had been removed from motor oil (and, I don't think they have been for either "S" rated gasoline service or "C" rated diesel oils), all one would have to do to restore them is add some EOS or equivalent to each oil change. I think that adding about a quarter of a pint of EOS would provide more of the additives than was present in oil even in the 60's. Of course, I'd use a lot more than that for engine break-in, but after that period, just a few ounces should be enough even if there was no additive in the substrate motor oil.

So, as I see it, the most that anyone would have to do is add a little EOS or equivalent.

[Duke W.]

Re: Motor Oil

The 1100-1200 ppm phosphorous concentration in CJ-4 represents more than enough ZDDP to protect vintage OE valvetrains and is about the same as was included in most S-category oils before the P limitations began with SL.

Challenging/correcting misinformation is the responsibility of anyone on this forum who has correct information, especially if it can be backed up with credible sources, and the American Petroleum Instititute, which works with the auto and petroleum industries, worldwide, to promulgate automotive lubricant standards is certainly more credible than any "engine builder" or "boutique" oil or additive marketer.

And challenging the credibility of information provided by individuals or commercial sources is not a "personal attack" unless you're a Democrat, in which case any challenge is claimed to be a personal attack.

Some of you guys sound like Hillary Clinton.

Duke

[Tom M.]

Re: Motor Oil

Tom------


What I don't understand about this is even if all of the zinc high pressure additives had been removed from motor oil (and, I don't think they have been for either "S" rated gasoline service or "C" rated diesel oils), all one would have to do to restore them is add some EOS or equivalent to each oil change. I think that adding about a quarter of a pint of EOS would provide more of the additives than was present in oil even in the 60's. Of course, I'd use a lot more than that for engine break-in, but after that period, just a few ounces should be enough even if there was no additive in the substrate motor oil.

So, as I see it, the most that anyone would have to do is add a little EOS or equivalent.

Joe,On a old motor, Yeah sound like it should work, for a new engine "If the new solid cam,flat tappet lifters ARE broken in RIGHT " by the builder, That is the key point here ,or
use Joe Gibbs racing oil too.

That is what my expert engine builder told me.

Regards Tom

[Bill B.]

Re: Motor Oil

I would gather all the above information, weigh it to your concerns, use the Internet google search to compare to other opinions, then check out ref. API certified engine oils at www.api.org/eolcs Also may I add that the use of motorcycle engine oils is a notch above because they have higher levels of anti-ware additives such as ZDDP (phosphorous), hey if they can keep those air cooled engines fresh to 150,000 miles, then obviously it will work better on those liquid cooled non emission controlled engines.

'There is no such thing as having too much information'.

Enjoy your ride....Bill

[Duke W.]

Re: Motor Oil

That link doesn't work, but the Summer 2008 article in The Corvette Restorer has the URL for the API 1509 EOLCS document.

It also contains some other educational URLs - in particular the "Lubricants University" site that has a basic "Fundamentals of Lubrication" online course and the "CJ-4" course, both of which can be taken at no cost.

The Fundamentals of Lubrication course is probably a good place for anyone interested in selecting proper motor oil to start, and it will probably take 30-60 minutes depending on how much background in the subject one currently has.

If you don't understand the difference between "boundary lubrication" and "hydrodynamic lubrication" you need to take this course, and I'm sure that with a few exceptions, everyone who participates in this forum can absorb the knowledge, which is fundamental to understanding engine lubrication issues and selecting the best motor oil for either modern or vintage engines.

Duke

[Bill B.]

Re: Motor Oil

Duke - I appreciate the updated links. Sometimes one only needs to know where to get a good hot-dog but doesn't necessarily need to know the ingredients. But if one requires this knowledge, your findings would be more then adequate and is a must read. Good job!

Thanks, Bill

[Edward C.]

Re: Motor Oil

Maybe I missed something but if you still want to add a Zinc addative where do you get it? Thanks Ed

[Joe R.]

Re: Motor Oil

Ed,

You can get Engine Oil Supplement (EOS) at GM. It's GM part number 88862586.

Joe

[Edward C.]

Re: Motor Oil

Thanks much Joe.My engine builder believes Rotello is sufficient but no more than I drive it might be feel good to use it. Ed

[Duke W.]

Re: Motor Oil

It's (Shell) Rotella, and it's certainly not the only choice. Rotella is the same as any other CI-4 or CJ-4 API service category engine oil.

Duke

[Dale M.]

Re: Motor Oil

After reading all of these post, I e-mailed Rotella to get their input. We just had a discussing at out local club last night. You can see my question and their reply below. I hope this is a reliable source for this information.

Rotella T with Triple Protection 15W-40 CJ-4 has approximately 1200 ppm zinc anti-wear. This is 50% more zinc than current passenger car motor oils (API SM/ILSAC GF-4) which contain approximately 800 ppm zinc. Passenger car motor oils had approximately 1200 ppm zinc prior to 2001. In 2001 the zinc was reduced to 1000 ppm and in 2005 reduced again to the current 800 ppm.

Thus, the new Rotella T with Triple Protection 15W-40 CJ-4 has the same zinc content that passenger car motor oils had in 2000 before the current problems with flat tappet engines began.

Thank you for your interest in Shell products.
Richard Moore

------------------------------------------------
ROTELLA.com E-mail Form
------------------------------------------------
NAME Dale Maris
E-MAIL ADDRESS maris.dale@gmail.com
SUBJECT Gasoline Engines
COMMENTS
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The National Corvette Restorers Society (NCRS) discussion board has a lot of references to using Rotella CJ-4 oil in older (1960s) corvettes.

There is a concern for the ZDDP levels of most newer oils. Can you qualify the zinc and ZPPD level of your oil and will the CJ-4 protect the flat tappet V-8 engines?

Thanks for any help you can provide.

[Duke W.]

Re: Motor Oil

Rotella T with Triple Protection 15W-40 CJ-4 has approximately 1200 ppm zinc anti-wear. This is 50% more zinc than current passenger car motor oils (API SM/ILSAC GF-4) which contain approximately 800 ppm zinc. Passenger car motor oils had approximately 1200 ppm zinc prior to 2001. In 2001 the zinc was reduced to 1000 ppm and in 2005 reduced again to the current 800 ppm.

Thus, the new Rotella T with Triple Protection 15W-40 CJ-4 has the same zinc content that passenger car motor oils had in 2000 before the current problems with flat tappet engines began.

What bothers me about the above response is that he refers to 1200 ppm "zinc". The actual chemical limitation in the API CJ-4 specification is applied to phosphorous, not zinc!

The current CJ-4 P limit is 1200 ppm and typical products will analyze in the range of 1000-1200 ppm. The current SM P limit is 800 ppm with a minimum of 600 ppm. Typical Zn analysis is 100 to 200 ppm higher than P, but there is no specific limit on Zn in the API specs.

Prior to the first limitation on P (1000 ppm), which began with SL circa 2000 most engine oils were dual rated, meeting both the then current S and C-category specifications. Whether a product was advertised for gasoline or diesel engines was a matter of marketing considerations, and in many cases I think the actual product formulations were essentially identical.

...but then anyone who read the engine oil article in the Summer 2008 Corvette Restorer already knows all this.

Duke

[Dale M.]

Re: Motor Oil

Duke, I am confused about the use of zinc and phosphorus in several different publications and post. I am scrambling to find my Summer 2008 Corvette Restorer so I can clear this up for myself. Next we will have to discuss how to get gas. I thank you for you input and additional information.

The bottom line is everyone wants to know what oil to use or additives to use in their cars to protect them.

Dale

[Tom M.]

Re: Motor Oil

What bothers me about the above response is that he refers to 1200 ppm "zinc". The actual chemical limitation in the API CJ-4 specification is applied to phosphorous, not zinc!

The current CJ-4 P limit is 1200 ppm and typical products will analyze in the range of 1000-1200 ppm. The current SM P limit is 800 ppm with a minimum of 600 ppm. Typical Zn analysis is 100 to 200 ppm higher than P, but there is no specific limit on Zn in the API specs.

Prior to the first limitation on P (1000 ppm), which began with SL circa 2000 most engine oils were dual rated, meeting both the then current S and C-category specifications. Whether a product was advertised for gasoline or diesel engines was a matter of marketing considerations, and in many cases I think the actual product formulations were essentially identical.

...but then anyone who read the engine oil article in the Summer 2008 Corvette Restorer already knows all this.

Duke

The main point here from the expert at Shell oil, MR. Richard Moore is Quote " ROTTALLA T 15W-40 CJ-4 HAS THE SAME ZINC CONTENT THAT PASSENGER CAR MOTOR OILS HAD IN 2002 BEFORE THE CURRENT PROBLEMS WITH FLAT TAPPET ENGINES BEGAN "

Tom

[Duke W.]

Re: Motor Oil

Duke, I am confused about the use of zinc and phosphorus in several different publications and post. I am scrambling to find my Summer 2008 Corvette Restorer so I can clear this up for myself. Next we will have to discuss how to get gas. I thank you for you input and additional information.

The bottom line is everyone wants to know what oil to use or additives to use in their cars to protect them.

Dale

The ZDDP (zinc diakyldithiophospate) molecule contains both zinc and phosphorous atoms as the name implies.

API chose to limit ZDDP by placing a limit on P rather than Zn. This may be because some base stock oils contain P molecules in their structure, but I believe P is considered a contaminent in lubrication oil molecules, and the refining process eliminates all but a very small number.

The primary reason for limiting ZDDP is concern that P (and maybe Zn) is a catalyst aging agent, and modern "roller everything" engines don't need as much ZDDP as vintage engines that have mostly sliding surfaces in the valvetrain.

For anyone who wants to truely understand modern engine oils - the differences in current formulations and the difference in lubrication requirements between modern and vintage engines, first read The Corvette Restorer article.

Second, spend the hour or so it takes to take the "Lubricants University" basic lubrication and CJ-4 online courses. The URL is listed in the article.

Third, download and skim through the API 1509 document (URL also in the article). Much of it is administrative in nature, but if you skim through it you will find the real technical meat on oil performance specifications and chemical analysis

If you read and absorb the above knowledge, you will be an expert on the subject and be able to make rational oil selection decisions for any vehicle you own.

It seems that some participants on this forum don't read The Corvette Restorer or even skim through it to find articles of interest. Their loss, and if they appear here and make statments like "all the zinc has been eliminated from oil" they just look like morons.

Duke