Original documentation dating verification

[Kenneth H.]

With all of the talk about the creation of fake documents being used to "verify" a corvette's originality, I was wondering if anyone has ever considered using a forensic document expert to verify document originality, or if it can even be done. I did a little research online, and found a few forensic experts who claim to be able to verify document age from the ink used on a document. I have not yet contacted them to discuss specifics.

The reason that I ask is that I recently went looking for the tank sticker on my 'vette, but was unsuccessful. All that I found was a tiny piece of paper with the letters "adio" on it. However, I have what was represented as an original sales invoice (which I believe to be real) and would like to verify it's originality.

Thanks,

[Steve B.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

With all the fake paperwork in circulation, the use of forensics (sp) should become much more common. At least this way there is no guessing involved.

[Terry M.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

I guess I am a contrarian.
I submit some documentation to a forensics examiner (have we all been watching too much CSI?). Let's say he/she certifies it as dating from the time of my car. I'm not even sure that can be done within a decade, but let's for the moment ignore that technicality.

How do you know that the piece of paper I then present to you is the same piece of paper that was presented to the examiner?

How do you know that this piece of paper is for the car I am trying to sell to you, and not from another car built around the same time?

[Steve B.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

Terry,
You make some great points. I am not suggesting that the use of forensics be the end all be all, but it could have its uses in determining if the document is 4yrs or 4 decades old. As always its buyer beware. BTW I have never seen CSI

[Kenneth H.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

Terry,

I used the term forensics in my original post only because the sites that I visited from my google search worded their services that way. Both sites discussed dating documents by using ink samples. I don't know how accurate in terms of year, or even decade, this service can be. That's why I posted.

But if they can date a document to say, within 3 years of the purported date of the document, even if you can't be sure that the document belongs to that particular 'vette, at least you'll know the document isn't a current reproduction (fake). I think I'd feel a little better with this knowledge in hand. And, I would think that there would be other indications from a physical inspection of the 'vette that it wasn't originally the 'vette identified in the document.

[Kenneth T.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

Terry,

I used the term forensics in my original post only because the sites that I visited from my google search worded their services that way. Both sites discussed dating documents by using ink samples. I don't know how accurate in terms of year, or even decade, this service can be. That's why I posted.

But if they can date a document to say, within 3 years of the purported date of the document, even if you can't be sure that the document belongs to that particular 'vette, at least you'll know the document isn't a current reproduction (fake). I think I'd feel a little better with this knowledge in hand. And, I would think that there would be other indications from a physical inspection of the 'vette that it wasn't originally the 'vette identified in the document.

Ken,

What you suggest has merit. The technology has come so far that nowdays forging a document is relativly easy. If you could determine the document was thirty or forty years old it would have been more difficult back then and of lesser quality. You might feel better about it.

Ken

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

I guess I am a contrarian.
I submit some documentation to a forensics examiner (have we all been watching too much CSI?). Let's say he/she certifies it as dating from the time of my car. I'm not even sure that can be done within a decade, but let's for the moment ignore that technicality.

How do you know that the piece of paper I then present to you is the same piece of paper that was presented to the examiner?

How do you know that this piece of paper is for the car I am trying to sell to you, and not from another car built around the same time?

TERRY
I have the tank sticker from my original one owner 67 coupe. I can read the two top lines of it but the rest of it with the options is very dark & most is unreadable. Could anyone be able to read this. I have POP & dealer order copy not the GM one?
KEN

[Pat M.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

I agree that dating documents could help. But similar to Terry's points, any man-made security technique can be circumvented with enough effort.
With this kind of money at stake, if they have to people will obtain 40-year old paper and ink somewhere (or find a way to make it look 40 years old to the tester) and reproduce this stuff, making it all but undetectable.

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

With this kind of money at stake, if they have to people will obtain 40-year old paper and ink somewhere (or find a way to make it look 40 years old to the tester) and reproduce this stuff, making it all but undetectable.

40 year old order forms,ink & original typewriter fonts? I think we are getting paranoid in our old age or just cynical after all these years. All of the fake stuff I have looked at was not that hard to tell. Look at the DUMB A** at BJ with the 67 black Corvette with the new sticker stuck to a piece of a new gas tank. Most crooks & con artists are not that smart.
KEN

[Pat M.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

40 year old order forms,ink & original typewriter fonts? I think we are getting paranoid in our old age or just cynical after all these years. All of the fake stuff I have looked at was not that hard to tell. Look at the DUMB A** at BJ with the 67 black Corvette with the new sticker stuck to a piece of a new gas tank. Most crooks & con artists are not that smart. KEN

I have a repo POP that looks outstanding, and went through judging without detection. How? The guy I got it from had one of the original POP machines, perfect font and all. With cars worth well over 100K and much more you don't think someone can find a way? ANY test can be beaten. Not paranoid, just realistic. And besides, I'm not that old.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

it can be done and they can tell the age of the paper and the ink. i know of one person that has done this and the cost is about $10K so you have better be selling a ZL-1 or a L-88 to justify the cost.

[Jack H.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

I have to agree with Terry. Those who claim to be expert in the field of document authentication are generally schooled aged manuscript documents written by hand with pen.

If memory serves, the factory broadcast sheets which the tank sticker is essentially a part of were printed on multi-part, tractor feed, Teletypewriters using carbon paper between the sheets. TTY machines were sold in SUBSTANTIAL quantities (millions) and I've never heard of a document forensics expert skilled in this specialty field (TTY + multi-part carbon paper)...

[Stuart F.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

I guess it helps to have the carbons. I have those from the dealer for the invoice, but I never got any factory paper work to speak of and didn't think to ask in 1963.

Stu Fox

[Clem Z.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

I have to agree with Terry. Those who claim to be expert in the field of document authentication are generally schooled aged manuscript documents written by hand with pen.

If memory serves, the factory broadcast sheets which the tank sticker is essentially a part of were printed on multi-part, tractor feed, Teletypewriters using carbon paper between the sheets. TTY machines were sold in SUBSTANTIAL quantities (millions) and I've never heard of a document forensics expert skilled in this specialty field (TTY + multi-part carbon paper)...

they can tell the age of the paper because paper made 40 years ago has different materials and so does the ink. they can tell the decade when the paper and ink that were use came from. all they need is a original item to document the years that type of paper and ink were used in the item in question. there are original tank stickers out there that can be used. the option list may be a carbon copy but the rest of the printing on the paper is not.

[Pat M.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

they can tell the age of the paper because paper made 40 years ago has different materials and so does the ink. they can tell the decade when the paper and ink that were use came from. all they need is a original item to document the years that type of paper and ink were used in the item in question. there are original tank stickers out there that can be used. the option list may be a carbon copy but the rest of the printing on the paper is not.

Yeah, but if the crook gets his hands on 40 year old paper and carbons and a teletype machine, what good is the test?