Matching numbers vs. non matching numbers.

[Joel F.]

Re: Matching numbers vs. non matching numbers.

Jim,

Most of the points associated with the cylinder case (block) come from the casting number and date. If the casting number is wrong, you loose all the points assciated with the cylinder case (350). If the cast numbers are correct but the date is too early or late, you loose 175 points. If the casting number and date are correct, the cylinder case pad surface finish (38 pts), assembly stamping, and vin derrivative will be evaluated (25 pts each).

So for example, if you have a small block car built in march of 65 and have the wrong engine, you can find another flint built '870 cast within 6 months prior to the vehicle's build date, you can still have this car judged without restamping it. Let's say your donor engine came out of a Chevelle and had not been decked or restamped, and had a Dec casting date. In this example, you'd loose 25 points for the assembly stamping, and 25 points for the vin derivative. You would get the 38 points for the pad surface since presumably it would be correct and undecked. If you were really going for the Duntov or were super anal retentive (who isn't?), you could try to find a block that who's dates work that has not been decked, and has come out of a Corvette with the same HP configuration. In this case, you'd only loose the 25 pts for the vin derivative. That is a similar deduct to an inop cigarette lighter during ops check.

[Jim C.]

Re: Matching numbers vs. non matching numbers.

Joe,

Thanks a ton for the explanation, and how an engine block is actually judged. I don't doubt that you are right. You seem to know what you're talking about, and I certainly do not claim to be any sort of expert in these matters. My point was much simpler and comes from a very basic belief that may not be technically correct in the eyes of NCRS. In my very humble opinion, a real "matching numbers car" is one that has its original block, trans, rear end, frame, and body. All the very same major components that were married together on the line the day the car was assembled by GM. Sure, cars had accidents and panels were replaced or fixed, water pumps, carbs and starters etc. went bad, and that's all fine. But from my point of view, it's not a matching numbers car if the ORIGINAL major components I've listed above are not still all together as they were on the day the car was assembled. I'm not at all opposed to restoration, just opposed to replacing major components that were all stamped, tagged, marked, etc. with a particular, individual, VIN derivative, and then trying to call it a numbers matching car when one, some or all have been replaced. That's just my opinion. I REALLY do appreciate your explanation however. Thanks.

Jim

[Michael W.]

Re: Matching numbers vs. non matching numbers.

Just to clarify two points:

1) a car with a non-original motor is not automatically excluded from any flight judging award.

2) Flight Judging does not attempt to authenticate any component of a car.

NCRS judging does not make use of the term 'matching numbers' in part due to it's nebulous nature.

OK, that's three points but you get the idea.

[Mark L.]

Re: Matching numbers vs. non matching numbers.

The 'numbers matching' game was invented by people who try to restore cars to their original configuration. It's as close to 'original' as practicle, but let's face it, they are only original if they have ALL original components.

Given the relative age of these cars and the fact that most of them were driven hard, it's surprising the number of original engined cars that are still around! Especially the high HP cars, most of them blew up early in life and got replaced with correct GM replacements or passenger car engines.

Unfortunately once a car is no longer original the 'numbers matching' game is subjective at best, objectivity is out the window.

I think 'numbers matching' means correct casting number, dates and application. So if you are looking at a '65 L78 you should expect the look and performance to be what the factory delivered, not a 327 with the casting date within the acceptable date range.

[Jim D.]

Re: Matching numbers vs. non matching numbers.

We are going to be purchasing a mid year Corvette as an investment.

As posted many times, that is a very poor investment strategy.