Lacquer Paint-warning

[Jerry A.]

First of all thank you all who responded to my question on restoring my lacquer paint finish. I do not want anyone to go through what I am so I am posting this thread.. We have enough problems restoring these cars. As mentioned I paid in excess of $11,000 to have my 67' painted it's original color(Sunfire Yellow). It has been over two years now since the job. It is now exhibiting (thru out the car) sanding scratch type lines and swirling type ridges such as you see from worm ridges in mud when you lift a rock from muddy ground. Please advise what has happened as my car has to be completely repaired. I've been told that the problem is due to incorrect preparation prior to color coat. By the way, the car was painted in the winter if that makes any difference such as low humidity, etc. I do have other corvettes that have lacquer finishes, painted several years ago and show none of these problems.
Thank you, Jerry

[Steven G.]

Re: Lacquer Paint-warning

Jerry, I'm sure your very disappointed at this time, I feel your pain. I suggest wet sanding a panel and repaint to help repair or identify the problem, always use fish eye eliminator in the paint. You probably will have to repaint this test panel a couple of times sanding between coats to fill in the inperfections you mentioned. Lacquer paint is basically lots of reducer leaving a very thin coat of actual paint. If this is fails, then you may have to get down to the prep coats (primmer and or sealer if used) and strip using paint remover as a last method. Probably others will recommend a sealer over existing paint problem with out stripping and repaint, but I have learned that more sealers can cause more trouble as well. Warm weather, low humidity is the best time to deal with paint issues because it will dry much faster and more workable. I hope my info. helps you get the paint finish the way you would expect it to be, you will be sucessful. Steve

[Brett H.]

Re: Lacquer Paint-warning

Obviously, you are experiencing "shrinkage". I would question IF there was ever a sealer used between the primer and color.

The main reason you are experiencing the sand marks, IMO, is because it was not properly prepped of any sand marks BEFORE any primering or paint was applied in the first place. It sounds like the bare fiberglass was not free of heavy sanding marks before the lacquer primer was applied. It should have at least had no heavier sanding than 80 grit before the primer was applied. When using lacquer primers, the best thing you can do is to have the fiberglass surface as free of heavy sanding marks as possible.

The lacquer primer does not have a catalyst and will remain porous. The proper sealer will only "help" to prevent sand mark shrinkage from appearing after time but will not guarentee it.

Today's lacquers are just not what they used to be. I have a 53 that I painted in lacquer in 2003. It is currently being repainted with BC/CC because the lacquer just didn't have any life left in it. It was PPG brand.

Good luck with your situation. I feel for you.
Brett

[Joe L.]

Re: Lacquer Paint-warning

First of all thank you all who responded to my question on restoring my lacquer paint finish. I do not want anyone to go through what I am so I am posting this thread.. We have enough problems restoring these cars. As mentioned I paid in excess of $11,000 to have my 67' painted it's original color(Sunfire Yellow). It has been over two years now since the job. It is now exhibiting (thru out the car) sanding scratch type lines and swirling type ridges such as you see from worm ridges in mud when you lift a rock from muddy ground. Please advise what has happened as my car has to be completely repaired. I've been told that the problem is due to incorrect preparation prior to color coat. By the way, the car was painted in the winter if that makes any difference such as low humidity, etc. I do have other corvettes that have lacquer finishes, painted several years ago and show none of these problems.
Thank you, Jerry

Jerry-----


Keep this in mind: at this point in time, the use of lacquer paint in automotive finishes represents a "niche" market of undoubtedly infinitesimally small size. That means that a lot of the tools, equipment, and, most important, practical experience to properly apply lacquer have "gone by the wayside". I'm sure this problem gets worse every year as more and more painters that once regularly worked with lacquer retire or otherwise quit painting. I expect that even those remaining with lacquer experience have somewhat "lost their touch" since, for the most part, they get little practical experience.

Most shops today won't even do any lacquer work for at least a couple of reasons. First, in many areas, environmental laws prohibit it. Second, the shops are now set up to use modern paint types and don't want to "reconfigure" their operations to deal with the few-and-far-between lacquer jobs.

In my mind, all of these things make a lacquer paint job these days "risky business".

[Rich P.]

Re: Lacquer Paint-warning

Jerry,

did you use Dupont or something else. If it was dupont then it's not poor prep but defective tints. I know this from 2 cars I painted quite some time ago. I had 2 high level Dupont suits (not paint reps) come to inspect the problem and they told me that they had a bad tint in the 66-67 yellow, knew about it for some time but were going to do nothing about it as they were in the process of eliminating lacqurer. This was in 96.

Rich

[Ridge K.]

Re: Lacquer Paint-warning



Now let me drag the soapbox out for a minute, and climb up on it.



to the truly restored Corvette, that is painted correctly with lacquerI agree if a knowledgeable judge deducted 100% for a bc/cc paint, he did his job


Thank you Jerry for keeping us advised on your own paint issues.

[Pat M.]

Re: Lacquer Paint-warning

My 70 was repainted in modern PPG lacquer about two years ago, and I've had absolutely no problems, and it looks great and judged very well. Just lucky I guess.

[Mike M.]

Re: Lacquer Paint-warning

Hi Ridge
I would be surprised if those NCRS folks you spoke with did not clarify
the NCRS position regarding paint.
I sense there may still be some confusion.
That being, NCRS does not require lacquer paint.
Only that the finish "APPEARS" to be factory applied material. This would include the lower body and "hidden" areas.
Further, many cars have not received any deductions by using material other than lacquer.
If memory serves, the National Judging Chairman expounded on this topic on this TDB a month or so ago.
HaND

[Stan E.]

Re: Lacquer Paint-warning

Please give us the name of the shop that ripped you off by not preparing your car properly for laquer so that we can be warned.

[Ridge K.]

Re: Lacquer Paint-warning



In my humble view, as a member with a membership number much higher than yours, that, is not right. Possibly, it is just me. I just see this is a failure of the organization, to once and for all, put the issue to bed. Is a fair deduction in points warranted?,....sure. Is 0 points fair?,.....you make the call.

Thank you for your comments. Ridge.

[Paul J.]

Re: Lacquer Paint-warning

Jerry:

I'm sorry about your problems, and thanks for the warning. I'll be rethinking my paint once again.

I checked out the video that Ridge mentioned. You had enough people in that two car garage to eat that car. It looked like a Formula One pit stop. That was smart to get all those people involved. The body drop went pretty smoothly because of that.

John is quite the interviewer, isn't he. I think we've got an idea for a new series on Powerblock.

Ridge, thanks for the tip on the video. Anytime we can watch a "real world" experience it's not only an education, it's good entertainment.

I hope that you get this resolved, Jerry. It's a very nice car.

Paul

[John H.]

Re: Lacquer Paint-warning

What ever is under the paint is the problem. Good surface prep is key. One brand of materials below the top coat is a must, as are flash times , in order not to trap solvents which will continue to work under the top coat. I recently spoke with a chemist from a major paint company and his answer to my question about the" new lacquers" was that the recent formulations are very different from the paint that I used to use years ago.His quote was "just because it is new does not mean it is better".-John

[Michael A.]

Re: Lacquer Paint-warning

Great video. For anyone interested here's the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpl3XbXtN5Q

[Brett H.]

Re: Lacquer Paint-warning

What ever is under the paint is the problem. Good surface prep is key. One brand of materials below the top coat is a must, as are flash times , in order not to trap solvents which will continue to work under the top coat. I recently spoke with a chemist from a major paint company and his answer to my question about the" new lacquers" was that the recent formulations are very different from the paint that I used to use years ago.His quote was "just because it is new does not mean it is better".-John

John, you are absolutely correct.
I would have to say again, the prep work is the key. I too, agree that the knowledge base of prepping and aplying lacquer is fading, as time marches on.

I am also in favor of changing the points deduction for BC/CC applications in today's climate of restorations.

[Zale P.]

Re: Lacquer Paint-warning

I agree 100% with Ridge Kayser!!

You're the man!

Cheers, Zale