Dealer installed items

[William M.]

I am very fortunate to have all the original paperwork for my 73 LS4 coupe. I am even more fortunate to have recently spoken with the original owner, who factory ordered the car. On his original order, a locking gas cap and undercoating are listed. The original owner confirms both. Why would the NCRS deduct for these two items when there is documentation to support they were dealer installed prior to delivery?

[Patrick H.]

Re: Dealer installed items

Why would the NCRS deduct for these two items when there is documentation to support they were dealer installed prior to delivery?

Because they were not factory installed items.

If the paperwork documented that the dealer added a hood scoop and low rider hydraulics, should we count that as "OK" too? A little extreme, but you get the idea.

Patrick

[William M.]

Re: Dealer installed items

Because they were not factory installed items.

If the paperwork documented that the dealer added a hood scoop and low rider hydraulics, should we count that as "OK" too? A little extreme, but you get the idea.

Patrick

What about Chevrolet parts installed by a Chevrolet dealer prior to delivery? Why are the passenger side view mirror and luggage rack treated differently than a locking gas cap?

[Jack H.]

Re: Dealer installed items

The line in the sand had to be drawn someplace regarding what constitutes 'original configuration' and the decision was made LONG AGO to make that line be at the point where the car was originally manufactured by Chevrolet. The standard is ennumerated in the NCRS Judging Reference Manual:

"Cars are to be judged to the standard of vehicle appearance, and as equipped, at the time and point of final assembly by the Chevrolet Motor Division of General Motors Corporation. Presentation for judging is to be in the condition normally associated with that of a Corvette which has undergone the then-current standard Chevrolet Dealer New Car Preparation for delivery to a purchaser, exclusive of any dealer or purchaser inspired additions, deletions or changes."

At to other dealer installed options like luggage rack, RH mirror, floor mats, tissue box, Etc. judges DO take deduction(s) for them. In many cases, the point value of the deduction(s) is minor and detailed via guidance text in the Judging Guide book applicable to that model year car...

[Patrick H.]

Re: Dealer installed items

What about Chevrolet parts installed by a Chevrolet dealer prior to delivery? Why are the passenger side view mirror and luggage rack treated differently than a locking gas cap?

The two items you mention receive deductions in the "body" section for "body damage" due to the holes they create. The mirror and rack themselves are not judged - they are ignored.

In the case of the gas cap, the original gas cap is entirely missing so a complete deduction is in order. An analogy would be if installing a luggage rack removed the whole body. That'd be a complete deduction too.

Patrick

[Jack H.]

Re: Dealer installed items

"In the case of the gas cap, the original gas cap is entirely missing so a complete deduction is in order."

Well, that brings up an issue of judging rule interpretation. With a dealer installed locking gas cap, there IS a gas cap present, it's just not of the same configuration as the factory original part.

The NCRS Judging Reference Manual cites three Standard Deduction rules for evaluating parts:

(1) Rule 6, GM Service Replacement Parts
(2) Rule 7, Reproduction Parts
(3) Rule 10, Incorrect Replacement Parts

The first two allow partial credit based on the judge's view of the part against our matrix judging policy (Finish, Date, Installation, Configuration, and Completeness). The third mandates a full deduction for both originality and condition based on:

"Non-GM replacement parts which are incorrect..."

OK, the problem here is there's no definition of what a non-GM part is nor is there a definition of what it means to be TOTALLY incorrect...

A healthy percentage of parts used on these cars were NOT made by GM...they were purchased from third party suppliers. Some Chevy dealers will sell you body panel components from Ecklers. Does that make the part become a 'GM' item?

If I buy a set of shocks today from my Chevy dealer, I get parts in a Delco box, but they're NOT made by GM and look nothing like the factory originals but they do have a GM PN.

What I'm getting at is the distinction between service replacement, reproduction and non-GM incorrect is VERY blurry today. Perhaps, that aspect of our judging rules should be changed/clarified...

My take is this. Absent specific NTL guidance on a given item, in order for Standard Deduction Rule 10 (Incorrect Replacement Parts) to apply, I feel the part must fail ALL five aspects of the matrix judging policy.

That's a TALL order since just about all generic replacement parts do INSTALL the same way as the part they're replacing! In this case (locking gas cap), there IS a cap there. It's not completely missing. So, absent any specific NTL provided judging guidelines, I'd deduct only to the extent that part deviates from Finish, Date, Installation, Configuration and Completeness.

In this case, I can see the dealer installed locking gas cap would fail Finish, Date, Installation and Configuration. But, it IS all there (Complete)...

[Patrick H.]

Re: Dealer installed items

"In the case of the gas cap, the original gas cap is entirely missing so a complete deduction is in order."

Well, that brings up an issue of judging rule interpretation. With a dealer installed locking gas cap, there IS a gas cap present, it's just not of the same configuration as the factory original part.

The NCRS Judging Reference Manual cites three Standard Deduction rules for evaluating parts:

(1) Rule 6, GM Service Replacement Parts
(2) Rule 7, Reproduction Parts
(3) Rule 10, Incorrect Replacement Parts

The first two allow partial credit based on the judge's view of the part against our matrix judging policy (Finish, Date, Installation, Configuration, and Completeness). The third mandates a full deduction for both originality and condition based on:

"Non-GM replacement parts which are incorrect..."

OK, the problem here is there's no definition of what a non-GM part is nor is there a definition of what it means to be TOTALLY incorrect...

A healthy percentage of parts used on these cars were NOT made by GM...they were purchased from third party suppliers. Some Chevy dealers will sell you body panel components from Ecklers. Does that make the part become a 'GM' item?

If I buy a set of shocks today from my Chevy dealer, I get parts in a Delco box, but they're NOT made by GM and look nothing like the factory originals but they do have a GM PN.

What I'm getting at is the distinction between service replacement, reproduction and non-GM incorrect is VERY blurry today. Perhaps, that aspect of our judging rules should be changed/clarified...

My take is this. Absent specific NTL guidance on a given item, in order for Standard Deduction Rule 10 (Incorrect Replacement Parts) to apply, I feel the part must fail ALL five aspects of the matrix judging policy.

That's a TALL order since just about all generic replacement parts do INSTALL the same way as the part they're replacing! In this case (locking gas cap), there IS a cap there. It's not completely missing. So, absent any specific NTL provided judging guidelines, I'd deduct only to the extent that part deviates from Finish, Date, Installation, Configuration and Completeness.

In this case, I can see the dealer installed locking gas cap would fail Finish, Date, Installation and Configuration. But, it IS all there (Complete)...

And I guess I interpret differently. When I've been judging I've seen (and received) complete deductions for oil filters, tires, etc that were not of the same brand as original. If a BFGoodrich receives a full deduction because it was not offered, surely a nontypical gas cap fits the same bill?

Patrick

[Dick W.]

Re: Dealer installed items

I have to agree with Patrick. I have only been judging about 25 years and served as a division Team leader for about 7-8 of those years. Unless it has changed since I stepped down as team leader, it has always been "as it left the factory, with normal dealer preparation". Locking gas caps would be an owner inspired addition and the configuration would warrant a total deduction.

[William M.]

Re: Dealer installed items

I have to agree with Patrick. I have only been judging about 25 years and served as a division Team leader for about 7-8 of those years. Unless it has changed since I stepped down as team leader, it has always been "as it left the factory, with normal dealer preparation". Locking gas caps would be an owner inspired addition and the configuration would warrant a total deduction.

73-74 Judging Guide calls for a 30% deduction for a dealer installed locking gas cap

[Jack H.]

Re: Dealer installed items

Yes, Dick, I know you and I've worked for/with you. But, here, I respectively disagree...

The locking gas cap was NOT a factory option and therefore doesn't qualify as a dealer/owner inspired configuration change. It can't. The factory never offered the option/feature. It's a dealer installed accessory.

Therefore, it's simply a part that differs from factory original. It IS a GM part and therefore doesn't qualify under rule 10 (non-GM and incorrect). It IS GM and it IS correct to the extent of what it is...

We take routinely take minor deductions for other dealer installed options and accessories like RH mirror, luggage rack, dealer installed of early mid-year cars, Etc. Therefore, I have difficulty understanding why we'd single out this particular, equivalent, dealer exclusive installed option and treat it differently by taking a full deduction?

Next, there's a separate rule regarding dealer installed options/accessories (Standard Deductions, Rule 9). That TELLS us: "a small deduction will be made for any Chevrolet dealer installed asscssory..." So, how can you claim, from the standpoint of a senior judge and former NTL, that a full deduction for the locking gas cap is proper and in order? I don't see how you get there when it seems to me our rules are clear on this subject...NO FULL DEDUCTION.

That's my point about there being potential interpretation conflicts in our Judging Reference Manual rules with different judges treating part(s) differently... Note, nowhere in the Judging Reference Manual is there guidance on what to do in the event rules conflict! A first year law student fresh from his contract law class reading the book would be appalled.. Believe me there ARE places where our rules conflict with each other.

Take leather interior. For certain years that WAS a factory installed option. We have one rule that says take 100% for an owner/dealer installed option configuration change. Then, we have another rule that speaks to 'altered cars' (rule 12). It tells us to only take a 50% deduction for change(s) of interior color or fabric. Hey! You can't have it both ways...the two rules are in conflict with each other when it comes to leather interior in a car whose trim tag doesn't support leather.

Some NTL's give specific guidance in their JG books on things like v-belts, oil filters, fuel filters, Etc. Our treatment is all over the map with little consistency from Division to Division in this regard. As a chapter judging chairman, it's difficult to defend/rationalize such to my 'flock'...

Mix that with where we are today (Delco/Delphi brand labeling parts from 3rd party suppliers) and there's a can of worms out there that IS being treated differently by different judges at different NCRS meets. I believe we need tops down clarification and guidance here...

Personally, I can't see the rationale for a full deduction for a dealer installed locking gas cap with the same NTL specifically providing partial credit for a luggage rack, RH mirror, floor mats, a road emergency kit, Etc. Some minor deduction IS in order, but a full deduction? I guess you'll have to explain/defend that rationale to me better than you have...

[Harmon C.]

Re: Dealer installed items

I have a few 73 locking gas caps and have never seen the GM logo on any of them. Without the logo it is just another non GM parts and should be treated as such. Show me the logo and I may change the deduction.

[Dick W.]

Re: Dealer installed items

Locking gas caps were made and sold by several vendors. There is no way to verify that it was a GM cap and therefore would warrant a total deduction Jack. I have almost 20 NOS locking caps and not a one has any indentifying marks to indicate that they are GM

[Patrick H.]

Re: Dealer installed items

Personally, I can't see the rationale for a full deduction for a dealer installed locking gas cap with the same NTL specifically providing partial credit for a luggage rack, RH mirror, floor mats, a road emergency kit, Etc. Some minor deduction IS in order, but a full deduction? I guess you'll have to explain/defend that rationale to me better than you have...

Jack,

You've been in the system long enough to know that there are no deductions at all for "floor mats, a road emergency kit, Etc." You remove them from the vehicle and they are not judged. Totally different area - unless you've recently changed your name to Roy?

As my analogy above states, the gas cap replaces a GM part with a whatever part. I suspect that "most" received the GM-available item but there was nothing to state that the dealer couldn't have a minion drive down to Pep Boys and grab a locking gas cap off the shelf, then place it on the Corvette. However, place a Camaro body on a Corvette chassis and only get a partial deduction? No. Drill a few holes to mount an item and it goes under "body damage."

I do agree that a more thorough table of "standard deductions" across all model years would be helpful.

Patrick

[Ridge K.]

Re: Dealer installed items

Jack,

You've been in the system long enough to know that there are no deductions at all for "floor mats, a road emergency kit, Etc." You remove them from the vehicle and they are not judged. Totally different area - unless you've recently changed your name to Roy?

As my analogy above states, the gas cap replaces a GM part with a whatever part. I suspect that "most" received the GM-available item but there was nothing to state that the dealer couldn't have a minion drive down to Pep Boys and grab a locking gas cap off the shelf, then place it on the Corvette. However, place a Camaro body on a Corvette chassis and only get a partial deduction? No. Drill a few holes to mount an item and it goes under "body damage."

I do agree that a more thorough table of "standard deductions" across all model years would be helpful.

Patrick

I think Patrick has the best comment so far, with "I do agree that a more thorough table of"standard deductions" across all model years would be helpful."
I don't have a dog in this hunt. I have been intently following this thread for one reason,....to learn. I must say however, the argument that the gas cap doesn't have a "GM logo", seems very, very lame to me. How many factory original parts on a vintage Corvette have a GM logo, or part number stamped on them? My own personal 1967 is sitting in my shop dis-assembled, with it's parts cataloged, bagged, and sitting in bins. According to the NADA, the average American car still on the road has around 10,000 moving parts. If one goes thru my parts removed from the 46.000 mile, 99% original car I dis-assembled, one finds very few GM stamped logos. Of course we all khow there are other means to identify an original GM part, and experienced judges utilize these means.
But to argue "no GM logo"?........huh? I buy the other arguments,.....but this one?
Ridge.

[Roy B.]

Re: Dealer installed items

Some of the JM is confusing to me and people knowing my 55 know I have accessories and some after market items installed . That was my choice and I accept any deduct a judge will take . When I entered my 55 at the nationals in 05 I told them not to worry and deduct what ever they wonted. I'll be judged again in Lake Tahoe next month to help the club gain money and if I get third flight or no flight so be it. If some one wont's to get top flight then just go by the JM , I don't need a top flight or any flight I just enjoy the event.