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Restoration Tips Needed

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  • Michael M.
    Very Frequent User
    • February 15, 2007
    • 455

    Restoration Tips Needed

    I need some help/advice/tips regarding paint and interior work on my '68.

    My car is a driver and up to this point I have done all of my own work (mostly mechanical). My driveline (engine, transmission and diff) and suspension (front and back) are in like new condition but now it is time to turn to more cosmetic things for which have neither the expertise nor the confidence that I could do a good job.

    I am going to get an estimate for an exterior paint job and a new interior. What are some questions I should be asking potential shops that will do the work?

    For the exterior, there is some minor fiberglass repair that will need to be done like cracks on the front wheelwell lips, and other small areas, etc. but the body was removed once before to replace fuel lines and the shop told me that the front was sagging and that some fiberglass in the front end of the car would need to be replaced for structural reasons.

    For the interior, (it is in pretty bad shape), the seats are torn at the seams, the carpet is torn, the rear compartment doors are warped and don't latch well, the center shifter console is broken and I need a new dash wiring harness and a new center gauge cluster bezel. Other than that, most of the interior parts are in pretty good shape (but would need some level of re-painting etc.), but I would think that if I just replace the broken pieces that they won't match the 41 year old pieces that I would be left in the vehicle. For instance, if I keep my dash pads but replace my center console, it would seem the colors will not match, if for nothing else due to fading. Am I right to assume that all the interior pieces should be replaced at the same time?

    I want to be more educated as I enter this process so that I ask the right questions but also have reasonable expectations for the work to be performed by a restoration shop and some of the pitfalls. We have all heard the story of the out of control restoration. I am a little nervous about farming out this much work. Should I expect the shop to be open to me visiting to see the work progress, etc. Should I be asking for all of my old parts to be kept and returned to me?

    Also, other than a recommendation for a complete body off restoration, are there any "while your at its", I should consider. For instance, I intend on having the pedal assembly rebuilt with new bushings, etc. while the interior is out, the gauges restored, and chrome exterior pieces either re-chromed or replaced.

    Since my car is a driver, my goal is not to create a show car, but I do want things done right and basically like it came from GM (e.g., no custom interior pieces, etc.).

    I know I have asked a lot of questions but any responses would be appreciated. Thanks.
  • Clark K.
    Expired
    • January 12, 2009
    • 536

    #2
    Re: Restoration Tips Needed

    As someone who has bought a "restored" C2 and then had to put $10,000 extra into it to make it mechanically perfect, I would like to weigh in. Be prepared to spend some big bucks for paint and interior work. This will be to the point where you may ask yourself if the car is worth it. Since you own a '68-'69 and it is a "driver", not a show car or Top Flight car, you will have to decide if the car is worth the money. If the car has sentimental value, such as it once belonged to your father, etc., then by all means, spend the money. If not, then, spend what you can now and keep within a budget until the car is completed. -Clark

    Comment

    • Michael M.
      Very Frequent User
      • February 15, 2007
      • 455

      #3
      Re: Restoration Tips Needed

      Clark, thanks for the reply.

      If the estimate is beyond what I want to spend then I will look for ways to do some of the work myself to reduce costs.

      Beyond the issue of whether the estimate is too high, are there specific questions I need to ask the shop relative to the restoration job? Do shops normally charge an hourly fee plus parts or is it usually a flat fee for the job?

      What type of paint should I use and should the price vary based on my choice?

      Comment

      • Jim T.
        Expired
        • March 1, 1993
        • 5351

        #4
        Re: Restoration Tips Needed

        Michael for the interior I can recommend Al Knoch. I bought my 68 seat covers from them over 20 years ago and they still look real good. It you check their show schedule you could make prior arrangements and have them replace the cushions and install their new seat covers at the show. They also sell carpets that you can install yourself.

        Comment

        • Joe T.
          Very Frequent User
          • October 25, 2006
          • 304

          #5
          Re: Restoration Tips Needed

          Michael: Most shops I know of charge an hourly rate rather than a flat rate for MOST work. Their reasoning is that they don't know what they'll find once they start to work
          CAUTION CAUTION CAUTION
          They can quickly get you in over your head! Even reputable shops will potentially find issues at a point where you must proceed. The secret (not really a secret) is to manage their time. The guy doing my fame work wanted to detail the engine compartment while he has the body off. While it does need to be done, it doesn't need to be done at this point. He is just trying to fill his mechanic's down time with discretionary work at my expense. Not malicious, just business. I can go on, but I hope this help you out. Do what you can (you'll really be surprised at what YOU can do!) and leave the heavy lifting and highly technical stuff to the experts. Its been said on this forum hundreds of times: Be realistic with your skills and expectations. Do what you can and TAKE YOUR TIME! Its a lot easier to have someone help you out once you've tried to do something and found it over your head than it is to get a multi-hundred dollar invoice from some guy charging $90/ hour for something you could have done yourself. Regards...joe

          Comment

          • Michael M.
            Very Frequent User
            • February 15, 2007
            • 455

            #6
            Re: Restoration Tips Needed

            OK, you guys are scaring me (but that's good). Until a few hours ago I hadn't even priced the interior pieces. I'm just getting an estimate after all (right?). Just the major interior pieces (door panels, carpet, upper and lower dash pads, pillar and header trim, rear quarters, forward console, parking brake console, gauge bezel and shifter plate) are over $3K at retail. Wow!! And that doesn't include the dash harness and rear compartment stuff and all of the little pieces that will probably add up to another $1500. Then of course I have to pay for the labor to remove and replace. Gosh, I may tackle the interior after all. I always saw the interior work as more an art than a science, but I may try my hand at artistry.

            Keep the comments coming. I appreciate all of the replies.

            Comment

            • Tom L.
              Extremely Frequent Poster
              • October 17, 2006
              • 1439

              #7
              Re: Restoration Tips Needed

              Everyone's caution is well put. I purchased my '72 BB for a good price knowing it needed paint. However, I didn't have a good grasp of what a quality repaint would cost.

              Then came my BIG rookie mistake... There were many body panels that needed replacement including both front fenders, upper surround, fender skirts, RR quarter panel, tail light panel and a few others. This turned out to be a much bigger project than I anticipated. After talking to several shops and getting referrals from people at shows I found someone to do the work.

              He gave me an estimate, I had a stroke, went forward with the work anyway, got the final bill and had another stroke (but I was smart enough to get the bill a week before picking up the car so I had time to recover). When finally I picked the car up I was very happy!!!

              After taking time to review the bill I found that the shop that did the work was very fair. They did charge me fairly for problems found along the way and in some cases I can't find charges for extra's that I know they did. Most of the additional cost was all the chrome, lenses and other trim pieces that add up ever so quickly, rookie mistake #2. My only regret is that if I just bought another restored car with the money I spent, I'd have two vettes!!

              I'm not complaing or even wishing I didn't do it, these were just my experiences. And by the way I can't wait to do the next one! Good luck!!!

              Comment

              • Clark K.
                Expired
                • January 12, 2009
                • 536

                #8
                Re: Restoration Tips Needed

                I agree with the other posters about resto shops charging you by the hour rather than a flat repair rate for specific work to be done. My experience is that with an old car, there is a high likelihood that a shop will find "hidden issues" that will require more time, hence cost, for them. They don't want to get burned and that is why resto shops quote a price per hour.

                If you are on a strict budget, you may be tempted to go with a very low bid on your job(s). Be wary of "cheap" work (and cheap parts). If you can install your own carpet, etc. you will save a bundle, but only on labor. But, you must do it right. I have seen too many botched amateurish jobs on Corvettes. I wouldn't buy a car that was restored by an (obvious) amateur.

                Al Knoch Interiors, Inc. is also whom I recommend for interior restoration "parts". I have bought from them recently and I am satisfied with their quality, price, and service (the triple keys). Here is a link to their website: http://www.alknochinteriors.com/

                In regard to paint, it depends upon what you want. If you never have plans to enter the car in either NCRS Flight judging OR car shows/concours, then you can save a bunch of money with a standard paint job. If you are in a local Corvette club, ask the other members who they recommend. If not, visit some shops listed in the yellow pages to see their work and to talk to the manager/owner.

                Most paint and body shops will quote you a two-stage paint job with the types of automotive finishes now available. If you wish to enter the car in Flight judging, the original finish needs to be applied so that you will not suffer point deductions in the double digits. I don't remember what year your Corvette is, but if it is an early C3, most likely, it had an acrylic lacquer finish from the factory. Acrylic lacquer application requires a paint shop to jump through some pretty big environmental "hoops", so very few shops offer this today. If you want a show quality finish, prepare to spend $10,000 for body work and paint. That is very expensive for a car that may not sell for that much to begin with. -Clark

                Comment

                • Michael M.
                  Very Frequent User
                  • February 15, 2007
                  • 455

                  #9
                  Re: Restoration Tips Needed

                  Thanks to all, and keep it coming.

                  My car is a '68 big block convertible with its original motor. I drive the car on the weekends all year long but not in inclement weather. I do not need a show quality finish, but I'm not going to Maaco or Earl Scheib either.

                  I have owned the car since I was 18 (let's see, hmmmm, that makes it 26 years of ownership for this vehicle) so I have no intention of selling. The paint and interior are in desparate need of a refresh but the car runs real nice so there is no real urgency to doing the paint and interior (just a desire to get it done as I have been promising myself for over 10 years).

                  I guess a good qulaity bc/cc is what I need, but I don't want regrets in 3-5 years either if the paint starts to peel or crack.

                  Based on the numbers I am seeing you guys quote, I am holding onto my wallet.

                  It seems I need to watch scope creep. The good thing is that the shop that is giving me the estimate has already pulled the body off once before, so they know the car. It has always been my philosophy to communicate potential problems to a shop beforehand, so neither of us is surprised. If the estimate is too much for me, then I'll have to ask what work I can perform myself to reduce the cost.

                  Should the shop pull the body to do the paint or is it OK to paint it as is and mask everything off.

                  Comment

                  • Tom L.
                    Extremely Frequent Poster
                    • October 17, 2006
                    • 1439

                    #10
                    Re: Restoration Tips Needed

                    Mine was painted with the body on and it came out great. No overspray either, signs of a good shop.

                    Comment

                    • Michael M.
                      Very Frequent User
                      • February 15, 2007
                      • 455

                      #11
                      Re: Restoration Tips Needed

                      Thanks Lynn, that is good to know.

                      Are people entering into written contracts for their restorations?

                      How long should I expect for a shop to take to do paint only? And how much longer for an interior restoration? Thanks for any replies.

                      Comment

                      • Clark K.
                        Expired
                        • January 12, 2009
                        • 536

                        #12
                        Re: Restoration Tips Needed

                        Michael, I asked a Corvette restorerer your questions. Yes, a written contract is usually signed by the car owner at the time the car is left with the shop. This protects both parties. Work is usually, but not always done on an hourly rate basis, not quoted by the job as with mechanical work.

                        He says '68's have some specific body issues that '69 and later cars do not have. A paint job on a '68 will usually be in the $10,000 - $15,000 price range for a two stage paint job (base color coat/clear top coat). This is nearly all labor to repair any body damage and then to gel coat the finished, stripped body. The usual time for the car to be in the shop is about three months. Over two months will be spent on stripping and repairing the body, prior to paint. The painting process is usually done in the last few weeks of the three months timeframe.

                        The good news is that the interior can be restored by the same shop at the same time the body is being stripped, prepped, and painted. Interiors typically cost around $5,000, but this is only an estimate without looking at the car.

                        Since your car is a '68 big block convertible, I think it is certainly worth paying $15-$20 grand for this restoration. With this kind of money, there are always those who are resistant. Be wary of those who quote figures substantially less. You will want work that is correct and that will last the test of time, or you will be eventually paying to do it over. -Clark

                        Comment

                        • Michael M.
                          Very Frequent User
                          • February 15, 2007
                          • 455

                          #13
                          Re: Restoration Tips Needed

                          Thanks Clark. I appreciate the inquiry. This definitely gives me something to go on. I am still amazed at the cost of this type of work though.

                          Comment

                          • Jack H.
                            Extremely Frequent Poster
                            • April 1, 1990
                            • 9906

                            #14
                            Re: Restoration Tips Needed

                            Understand, the work IS labor intensive and that's what you're up against....

                            Have a CLEAR definition of the end game before you start getting price quotes. Do you want a Top Flight job? A job that could receive Top Flight with mileage driven credit(s)? On just a nice driver quality job?

                            Many get started with one definition of the end objective, then start reading the NCRS judging literature and begin steering the work down a different path that winds up costing BIG-$$$...beware of yourself.

                            Laying fresh paint over the car's existing paint is a quick way to make 'er look fresh again, but in most cases you'll be fighting spider webs & surface cracks a few years later. The secret to a good, long lasting, paint job on a Corvette is go down to raw fiberglass and bring 'er back up. But, that adds SIGNIFICANT labor hours!

                            Last, if your objective IS to achieve a Top Flight exterior finish, question your paint/body man closely. How many prior jobs has he done in this vein? When did he do them? Can you see the cars/talk to the owners?

                            There are quite a few professional painters skilled in concours d'elegance paint and body work, but that's NOT the same as a factory concours job...

                            Comment

                            • Michael M.
                              Very Frequent User
                              • February 15, 2007
                              • 455

                              #15
                              Re: Restoration Tips Needed

                              Jack, I appreciate the color (no pun intended) on the paint issue.

                              My goal with this vehicle has never been a Top Flight. I need a nice driver quality paint job that will last. I don't mind paying for quality though. Right now my car looks great underneath (not NCRS restored but fully rebuilt and like new and I did all the work myself except for a few of the bigger items like diff and trailing arms that I farmed out). I am almost embarrased to go to a cruise-in or any other sort of car get together because of the sad state of the interior and paint. I don't need a concours job but like I said earlier Earl Scheib or Maaco won't do either. I will have to specify that I want the current paint stripped off.

                              Also, you state "There are quite a few professional painters skilled in concours d'elegance paint and body work, but that's NOT the same as a factory concours job." My question is what's the difference. I am new to these terms. Thanks.

                              Comment

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