66-Lower Ball Joint Rivet procedure

[Keith B.]

Trying to install new repro LIC Lower Ball joint w/Rivet's, have 20 ton press but not that talented......the 4 rivets shipped to me appear to be aluminum, where they not steel originally??

After much reading in the archive, it appears clear that one should find a machine shop.

Can someone definatively tell me if the Rivet head goes outside/in -shot penned or inside/out.

Can some send me or post an org 1966 Rivet picture so I can show the machinist please and thanks......

[Joe L.]

Re: 66-Lower Ball Joint Rivet procedure

Trying to install new repro LIC Lower Ball joint w/Rivet's, have 20 ton press but not that talented......the 4 rivets shipped to me appear to be aluminum, where they not steel originally??

After much reading in the archive, it appears clear that one should find a machine shop.

Can someone definatively tell me if the Rivet head goes outside/in -shot penned or inside/out.

Can some send me or post an org 1966 Rivet picture so I can show the machinist please and thanks......

Keith-----



Original rivets were STEEL. The rivet head was on the INSIDE. I doubt that you'll find many, if any, machine shops these days that will be willing to set these rivets for you.

[Steve L.]

Re: 66-Lower Ball Joint Rivet procedure

I watched one of the well regarded Florida Corvette shops intall my rivets a few months back.

They first tried out the rivet to make sure it fits the hole and ball joint. They had to ream out the hole a bit on the A arm. There was two of them doing this job. They were all set up with their own what appeared to be custom fixtures. One held the rivet in a tong, while the other heated the rivet to bright red. They popped the rivet in. One held the rivet in place while the other used an air hammer to round out the rivet. Only took less than a minute.

Now that I've seen this, I could do it in my own garage. But I would buy a few practice rivets first to get the feel on how to round the rivet out. The air hammer is not just dead straight on. It need to be twirled around the rivet axis to get the head round.

The fixture they had was held in a vice and basically was a wedge that was placed between the two rivet locations inside the A arm. I could probably make one of these with bar stock,drill and a grinder.

When you have someone like these fellows do it, your are essentially paying for the expertise.

They also had all kinds of other custom go,no-go fixtures for checking out various alignment and warpage of TA arms, etc.

[Jack H.]

Re: 66-Lower Ball Joint Rivet procedure

Yes, I too have seen rivets installed with a 'simulated' method (heating + bucking), but that's not the way they were originally done. The factory assy's were cold set using SUBSTANTIAL hydraulic pressure to set them.

There's usually some form of telltale left from a heated installation that can be visually detected vs. the original cold set process...

[Larry M.]

Re: 66-Lower Ball Joint Rivet procedure

Keith:

If you are looking for functionality only and not appearance, Bair's sell rivet bolts that look like a rivet but have a nut on one end. Grade 8 metal stock.

If you need them for judging, suggest contacting Bair's and see if they will install for you. Probably easier/better in the long run if you have the time. As Steve says, it takes HEAT and a good rivet gun or press or sledge hammer to set correctly. But it has been done many times by folks in their own garage. You'll have to make the call.

Larry

[Ridge K.]

Re: 66-Lower Ball Joint Rivet procedure

Keith, here's some pics of a NOS lower A-frame assembly with factory ball joints. As mentioned,...defintitely steel.
This unit still has the original GM dealer order tag attached, which shows it is from early 1970s era.
I second the recommendation on Bair's, but, for a do it yourself job, maybe these pics will shed some light. Good luck, Ridge.

[Page C.]

Re: 66-Lower Ball Joint Rivet procedure

Hi Ridge,
The pictures that you posted are also a great example of the degree of gloss paint for the control arms. This is NOT a high gloss finish. It is the same as a couple of upper A arms that I bought years ago. Thanks for posting.
Regards,
Page Campbell

[John H.]

Re: 66-Lower Ball Joint Rivet procedure

The original steel ball joint rivets were set (cold) at St. Louis, using a hydraulic-powered "C"-press riveter like the photo below; the frame line at any truck assembly plant used literally dozens of these hydraulic riveters, as 99% of the brackets and crossmembers on a truck frame were riveted in place.

[Joe L.]

Re: 66-Lower Ball Joint Rivet procedure

Keith-----


I erred on the rivet head orientation in my previous post. The head is, indeed, oriented to the OUTSIDE as shown in the posted photos.

[Joe R.]

Re: 66-Lower Ball Joint Rivet procedure

John,

I can see Rosie with one of those in her hand now! What a woman.

Glad you dispelled the myth of hot rivets and the hydraulic press.

Thanks,

JR

[Dan H.]

Re: 66-Lower Ball Joint Rivet procedure

Keith-----


I erred on the rivet head orientation in my previous post. The head is, indeed, oriented to the OUTSIDE as shown in the posted photos.

Joe, I was looking through the Archives and found Ridge Kayser's pictures of his NOS/Service replacement lower A arm in Feb, 08, then Rob McPherson sent in pictures of an original factory installed rivet which clearly had the head on the inside of the A arm. Was the factory different than the Service parts?
Dan

[Ridge K.]

Re: 66-Lower Ball Joint Rivet procedure

Joe, I was looking through the Archives and found Ridge Kayser's pictures of his NOS/Service replacement lower A arm in Feb, 08, then Rob McPherson sent in pictures of an original factory installed rivet which clearly had the head on the inside of the A arm. Was the factory different than the Service parts?
Dan

Dan, I do remember that previous discussion where I supplied photos of my set of NOS upper and lower A arms. I also remember Rob's pic, but other original '67 examples I have seen appear to be oriented as my NOS service replacements.
My '67 is a 43,000 mile, extremely original car, that was put up in a barn sometime in 1979. The entire front end components appear to be virgin, as left the factory. I've attached a photo of the original rivets, but admittedly, they are very, very weathered with surface rust. In the next day or so, I will attempt to knock the surface rust off, and get a better view of the rivet heads. They appear to be the same as the NOS example.
I have attached a pic, but as mentioned, it's hard to get a clear view.
I hope Joe L can shed some more light on the subect. Ridg

p.s. these pics also give one a perspective of what to expect in a "barn find", put up 30 years ago.

[Joe L.]

Re: 66-Lower Ball Joint Rivet procedure

Joe, I was looking through the Archives and found Ridge Kayser's pictures of his NOS/Service replacement lower A arm in Feb, 08, then Rob McPherson sent in pictures of an original factory installed rivet which clearly had the head on the inside of the A arm. Was the factory different than the Service parts?
Dan

Dan-----


There actually was a difference in assembly but I don't know if it affected the rivet orientation, or not.

The PRODUCTION arms were supplied to St. Louis with the shafts and bushings installed but the ball joints not installed. The ball joints were installed at St. Louis.

The SERVICE a-arms were supplied with no bushings or shafts installed but with ball joints installed.

Consequently, the ball joints were installed at different locations and I suppose it's possible that the rivet orientation was different.

When I posted my original response, it was based upon my memory of how the rivets were installed. After viewing the posted photos of the SERVICE arms and checking the AIM for the rivet orientation (which shows the head on the outside), I assumed that my memory was faulty. However, the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that the lower ball joint rivets on my 69 were installed with the rivet head on the inside.

[Keith B.]

Re: 66-Lower Ball Joint Rivet procedure-Bairs Service

Thanks guys for the all the tips. Found a machine shop with the right equipment to do the job thanks to my fellow BC Chapter NCRS partner, Grant Wong.

BTW: When installing my complete new set of 8 new rubber bushing , I screwed up one of them with the press and damaged the rubber on one. Sent a message to Bairs, to order a new one and to call me for payment. Brian Biar immediately responds via e-mail and gets one in the mail today - no charge. Outstanding customer service in my view....

[Ridge K.]

Re: 66-Lower Ball Joint Rivet procedure

Hi Ridge,
The pictures that you posted are also a great example of the degree of gloss paint for the control arms. This is NOT a high gloss finish. It is the same as a couple of upper A arms that I bought years ago. Thanks for posting.
Regards,
Page Campbell

Page, you're correct. The level of gloss is not a high gloss. And, as mentioned, I am pretty certain that these NOS service replacement parts were from the early 1970s, due to dealer order tags still attached.
I purchased these parts,.. that were acquired from the estate of an elderly gentleman who had ordered in a complete set of front end parts for replacement on his mid-year. The family stated he had ordered the parts at a northeast GM dealer in 1972 or so.
Here's a pic of the control arm shafts I got with the lot. As you can see, they were sold with bushings installed, washers, and bolts. The lower bolts have an "M" headmark. Bare steel with no paint or coating. Part numbers: 3749296, and 3845244.
Ridge