CJ-4 versus CF-2

[Joe C.]

Archives bore no answers for me, so I'll bring this up yet another time.

The way I understand it, API rated CJ-4 motor oils contain minimum 1200 (?) ppm ZDDP, whereas the older CI-4 contained slightly more (was it 1400?, 1600?). In any case, either of these ZDDP levels is considered within optimal levels to protect sliding surfaces in older engines, since TOO much zinc/phosphorous can do more harm than good.

I would prefer a CJ-4 oil in a lighter weight than 15W-40, and understand that 10W-30 may be special ordered from retailers who stock the 15W-40. I have had no luck, so far in having any retailers in my area special order the 10W-30.

Another option I'm looking at, is to use a straight 30 weight oil; since my engine sees no use in temps below about 50-55 degrees, then the "winter" multi-vis oil is not necessary. I'm also aware that the absence of viscosity modifiers leaves more "room" for either base stock or other more beneficient additives like dispersants/detergents and/or zinc/phosphorous compounds. This oil is not available in CJ-4 but only CF-2, which is formulated for 2-stroke diesels, whose spec has not been modified since 1994. Basically, this is for marine, or large stationary diesel engines.

Duke, what can you tell me about the CF-2?

Thanks in advance.

Joe

[Duke W.]

Re: CJ-4 versus CF-2

Well, hallaluyah! An engine oil question that has never been asked before.

First, the concentration of ZDDP is NEVER listed. Concentration levels for P and sometimes Zn are listed in spec sheets. These are surrogates for ZDDP, and P is what is limited in current API specs but the CJ-4 limit is 50 percent higher than SM.

CF-2 is an older spec that may be preferred for 2-stroke diesels like old Detroit Diesels, and it may also be used in EMD 2-stroke locomotive engines - the old 567 and 645 models and the current 710 engines (Stuart...?). Since it's an old spec for 2-strokes, I never paid much attention to it, but I believe it's still available from some manufacturers in straight SAE 30 and 40 viscosities.

Go to the Chevron Delo Web site, look at the spec sheets for all the Delo 100 and Delo Marine engine oil products, and you will find something that is CF-2. Delo 400 products are certified to pre CJ-4 specs, and Delo 400 LE products are CJ-4

Let us know what you find.

And you need to reread the engine oil article in The Corvette Restorer to understand the element concentration levels in engine oils. CJ-4 is limited to 1200 ppm P. Prior specs had no limit, but were typially in the range of 1200-1400 ppm P, but I don't recall ever seeing a pre-CJ-4 oil that ever had more than 1400 ppm P. For a given P concentration, the Zn concentration is usually about 100-150 ppm higher. Do not confuse them.

For those who are pathalogically obsessed with ZDDP, contact a Delo distributor to find out how you can buy Delo 400 Multigrade, which I believe is available only in a 15W-40 grade. It is certified CI-4 Plus and has a P concentration of 1300-1400 ppm, versus 1100-1200 in Delo 400 LE CJ-4, which is fine for the rest of us that don't line our hats with aluminum foil.

Duke

[Larry M.]

Re: CJ-4 versus CF-2

Joe:

I believe that the CJ-4 rated oil is also available in straight 30 wt. But if you cannot get someone to special order 10W-30, you also may have trouble finding the 30 weight oil. However, I thought I recently saw 30 wt Shell Rotella CJ-4 rated oil at Advance Auto or NAPA here in the New Orleans area.

However, another option for 30 wt oil is to get those that are marked SL classification for automobiles. As I understand it, the SL oils will (should) have the higher Z and P numbers. Data from my files show SL oils to have 1100 ppm Zinc and 1000 ppm Phosphorous. Things went downhill when SM was introduced. But some straight weight oils did not change and kept the old SL specs.

Pennzoil (Long-Life HD oil) is one such brand.....both for the 10W-30 CJ-4, 30 wt CJ-4, and 30 wt SL. Pennzoil is also owned by Shell, and I would expect that the two brands of oil get more similar in passing months/years. I have been using Pennzoil SL rated oil and CI-4/CJ-4 rated oil for years in my Corvette without issue.



Larry

[Duke W.]

Re: CJ-4 versus CF-2

As I said in The Corvette Restorer article, SL was the first API spec to limit P and that limit is 1000 ppm. The CJ-4 limit is 1200.

When you discuss brands, you need to be precise in terminology. There are multiple variations on "Shell Rotella" and "Chevron Delo" like Delo 100, Delo 400, and Delo 400 LE, all of which which are usually certified to different API specs.

The manufacturers are certainly doing us no favor with all the variations on product names, but that's marketing and why you should only buy the API spec and viscosity range, not the brand name

Duke

[Timothy B.]

Re: CJ-4 versus CF-2

I just bought some Walmart CI-4, 2 gal container for $17.00. That's the best price I have seen in a long time. Much less money than the name brands even in Walmart.

[Joe C.]

Re: CJ-4 versus CF-2

Joe:

I believe that the CJ-4 rated oil is also available in straight 30 wt. But if you cannot get someone to special order 10W-30, you also may have trouble finding the 30 weight oil. However, I thought I recently saw 30 wt Shell Rotella CJ-4 rated oil at Advance Auto or NAPA here in the New Orleans area.

However, another option for 30 wt oil is to get those that are marked SL classification for automobiles. As I understand it, the SL oils will (should) have the higher Z and P numbers. Data from my files show SL oils to have 1100 ppm Zinc and 1000 ppm Phosphorous. Things went downhill when SM was introduced. But some straight weight oils did not change and kept the old SL specs.

Pennzoil (Long-Life HD oil) is one such brand.....both for the 10W-30 CJ-4, 30 wt CJ-4, and 30 wt SL. Pennzoil is also owned by Shell, and I would expect that the two brands of oil get more similar in passing months/years. I have been using Pennzoil SL rated oil and CI-4/CJ-4 rated oil for years in my Corvette without issue.



Larry

Larry,

The "straight 30 weight" motor oil is, of course, available in API SM.

IN ADDITION, many companies sell the so-called "diesel" motor oils in "straight 30 weight" too; however, these "diesel" oils, in straight 30 weight (NOT TO be confused with the SM straight 30 weight motor oils) ARE EXCLUSIVELY AVAILABLE IN API CF-2 rating. I have seen the CF-2, 30 weight in the Shell, Chevron, Valvoline and Mobil brands.

And so, the reason for my original question to Duke (which, I'm not quite sure that he answered), which was, essentially: "is CF-2 oil suitable for use as a substitute for CI-4 or CJ-4, and what is the difference?"

Duke...........I have looked around but have not found the answer to the question stated above.

I'll look further, for the benefit of out readership.

The question is moot, however, because earlier this afternoon, I called Shell's US Lubricant Division, who put me in touch with the regional supplier in Lakewood NJ. I ordered 2 cases of 12 - 1 qt bottles of Shell Rotella T in 10W-30 @ $13.46/case. Gallon jugs were not available..................I prefer the quarts, anyway.

Joe

[Joe C.]

Re: CJ-4 versus CF-2

Well, hallaluyah! An engine oil question that has never been asked before.

First, the concentration of ZDDP is NEVER listed. Concentration levels for P and sometimes Zn are listed in spec sheets. These are surrogates for ZDDP, and P is what is limited in current API specs but the CJ-4 limit is 50 percent higher than SM.

CF-2 is an older spec that may be preferred for 2-stroke diesels like old Detroit Diesels, and it may also be used in EMD 2-stroke locomotive engines - the old 567 and 645 models and the current 710 engines (Stuart...?). Since it's an old spec for 2-strokes, I never paid much attention to it, but I believe it's still available from some manufacturers in straight SAE 30 and 40 viscosities.

Go to the Chevron Delo Web site, look at the spec sheets for all the Delo 100 and Delo Marine engine oil products, and you will find something that is CF-2. Delo 400 products are certified to pre CJ-4 specs, and Delo 400 LE products are CJ-4

Let us know what you find.

And you need to reread the engine oil article in The Corvette Restorer to understand the element concentration levels in engine oils. CJ-4 is limited to 1200 ppm P. Prior specs had no limit, but were typially in the range of 1200-1400 ppm P, but I don't recall ever seeing a pre-CJ-4 oil that ever had more than 1400 ppm P. For a given P concentration, the Zn concentration is usually about 100-150 ppm higher. Do not confuse them.

For those who are pathalogically obsessed with ZDDP, contact a Delo distributor to find out how you can buy Delo 400 Multigrade, which I believe is available only in a 15W-40 grade. It is certified CI-4 Plus and has a P concentration of 1300-1400 ppm, versus 1100-1200 in Delo 400 LE CJ-4, which is fine for the rest of us that don't line our hats with aluminum foil.

Duke

As you say.......the API Service grades for the three Delo oils (400, 400LE and 100) match those that you stated. Which brings me back to the original question: What is the difference between CJ-4 and CF-2, other than the fact that the former is: "........... formulated using the most advanced additive technology available to provide outstanding engine protection for 2007 EPA exhaust particulate emissions standards for on highway diesel trucks that use Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD)...", and the latter is: "...........designed to provide effective wear and deposits control in two-stroke diesel engines, Delo 100 meets API service classifications CF-2 and CD-II (SAE 30, 40, 50), and CF and CD (all grades)..."

[Duke W.]

Re: CJ-4 versus CF-2

The differences in these oil can be subtle, and there is the usual marketing hyperbole, but look at the analysis data - like the P, Zn, and ash analyses along with the TBN for Delo 100, Delo 400 Multigrade, and Delo 400 LE. How do they compare?

Duke

[Duke W.]

Re: CJ-4 versus CF-2

Larry,


Shell Rotella T in API 10W-30

Joe

The above makes no sense. "10W-30" is the SAE viscosity grade. "API" refers to the API service category. So what is it?

Duke

[Patrick H.]

Re: CJ-4 versus CF-2

FYI, This is an interesting website from the API:

http://www.apicj-4.org/

For my own education I've been to the Shell site and the Chevron site. I can't find the exact specifics regarding the amount of "P" (or anything else) for any of the oil. Yes, I can find what specs they meet but not what's in them. If you found them, Duke, you have more time than I do.

Patrick

[Joe C.]

Re: CJ-4 versus CF-2

Attached, please find pertinent Specification Sheets for Chevron API Service Grade CJ-4 (in both 15W-40 and 10W-30 weights), SL, and CF-2.
Attached, also, please find a photo of Duke wearing his new hat.

Zinc and phosphorous per-cents by weight are in BOLD for your convenience:

[Patrick H.]

Re: CJ-4 versus CF-2

Attached, please find pertinent Specification Sheets for Chevron API Service Grade CJ-4 (in both 15W-40 and 10W-30 weights), SL, and CF-2.

Zinc and phosphorous per-cents by weight are in BOLD for your convenience:

Interpretation/analysis will be forthcoming.

So where'd you find them?

[Duke W.]

Re: CJ-4 versus CF-2

Patrick - go to http://www.chevrondelo.com/en/products/default.asp Select the region on the LH menu panel, check "products data", then "go'.

This will yield a list of links to all the Delo spec sheets, and most if not all these pdfs list the P concentration and other analysis data on the second page.

I'm not sure if the Shell and Mobil sites have as comprehensive data on their products, which is why I refer most to the Delo site if they are looking for detailed analysis specs for various C-category oils.

If you don't bookmark or remember the above link, just google Chevron Delo.

The link you listed is very informative. All should read, however, the FAQ section is specifically geared to diesel operators, so the questions and answers may not be specifically applicable to vintage spark ignition engines.

Chevron, Shell, and Mobil have spent decades (more than some of us have been around) building their commercial/diesel lubricant products brands. It's a huge market and the competition is fierce. If every vintage car owner who wants "nothing but the best" for their car we to simultaneously switch to any of the above manufacturers' diesel brands, they probably wouldn't even see a blip on ther sales charts. So don't expect any of the above marketers to advertise to us. We have to rely on our own resources and expertise to ferret out the best lubrication products for vintage cars.

Duke

[Joe C.]

Re: CJ-4 versus CF-2

So where'd you find them?

PITA ...........I, II, III were on the Delo Website
IV was also available at Chevron....had to Google "Chevron Supreme Spec Sheet", and check out hits until I found it.

Now Poindexter needs to convert the % by weight into PPM.

[Nick M.]

Re: CJ-4 versus CF-2

Duke

I read your responses to the various oil related questions and must confess that I am in a bit of a fog as to what the bottom line reccomendation from you is with respect to which oil to use in the older Corvette engines. The technical nature of the discussions is interesting but confusing to us novices and I wonder if you can simply provide a bottom line reccomendation for the suggested oil type, SAE and retail source so that I can just go buy what I need and get to work changing the oil that probably needs it! Thanks