69 Windshield installation advise

[John A.]

There seems to be a lot of information regarding how it WAS done back in 69 and what material they use - namely the DAM, the spacers and the sealer. But those materials are no longer available. So, where does that leave the current day NCRS member with regard to installation options?


With that said, is there a suitable substitute for the dam available? Does this second approach sound like a viable alternative to what is described in the service manual? Please comment/advise!
Thanks

[Chuck S.]

Re: 69 Windshield installation advise

I haven't installed my windshield yet...I'm not sure I will; I may decide this is a job for pros.

But, I believe we're forced to use modern materials and methods. I have read descriptions of the dam here. It's in the archives somewhere, but I don't remember the description. I don't believe it was foam like the modern dams, but I could be wrong. Foam dams and setting blocks (spacers) are still available, but I'm not sure how many glass shops use them routinely. I would probably go to a glass shop to see if I could pick their brains on what they use and where it's available...after all, there is always the chance you will let them do the work, and you have a right to know how they plan to do it.

If you examine the cowl area just below the lower pinch weld, you should find a white plastic (it's likely blacked out on top of body color) block pop-riveted to the upper cowl near each fender. If I remember correctly, these two "stops" (70 AIM, UPC 1, Sheet F6) support the lower edge of the windshield...this sets the up/down location. Check your AIM for the windshield installation (70 AIM, UPC 1, Sheet F9). Since the materials have changed, about the only useful information there is the sealant path along the bottom of the windshield, and the location of the "spacers". Note the sealant bead goes straight across the bottom of the windshield; it does not follow the edge of the big center tab.

You are correct...You are only going to get one chance to set it down in the correct position. If you try to do it yourself, you are going to need at least one helper, and a couple of those suction cup glass handling tools. Ideally, you probably need another skilled helper to handle the glass while you confirm alignment of the dry-fit marks.

This link is to a generic Carlite installation procedure: http://www.glasslinks.com/tips/carproc.htm . Carlite and Visteon are Ford trademarks, but the processes are the same.

[Alan S.]

Re: 69 Windshield installation advise

Hi John,
I looked for a suitable 'damming strip' for more than a couple of years. I couldn't find anything that I considered close to my original 71 strip.
When the time came to put the windshield in I used a Toyota strip because of it's size, color, and shape.
The main point is, I think, that the strip prevents you from seeing the sealer (Thiokol, Butyl, or what ever you use) as you look through from the exterior of the windshield. Until someone finds a roll of the original strip that's about the best that can be accomplished.
The original strip has a bit of fabric on one side that was the carrier for the adhesive. I heard that someone had duplicated this by gluing a tiny strip of linen to the foam strip, but I've haven't seen it...yet.
I'm glad to say that I've gone on to obsessing about OTHER original details.
Regards,
Alan

[John H.]

Re: 69 Windshield installation advise

The original strip has a bit of fabric on one side that was the carrier for the adhesive.

Trivia - The original dam material came on a large spool, with the fabric strip already on it; when it passed through the dispensing head, hot glue was applied automatically to the fabric side to adhere it to the (silane-primed) glass. The dam was specified to contain any Thiokol squeeze-out so it wouldn't be visible past the edges of the garnish moldings from inside the car.

[Alan S.]

Re: 69 Windshield installation advise

Hi John,
Thanks VERY much for the information. That's much more description than I've ever seen. I can see the fabric on my original strip but always thought the glue was part of the fabric, not applied to it.
Regards,
Alan
PS: The description for replacing the windshield in the Chassis Service Manual leads me to believe that the kit for the job that was availible to the service departments included a length of that damming strip. Was that so? If so, I'll continue my search for one of those kits.

[Lynn H.]

Re: 69 Windshield installation advise

On the subject of what the "modern" glass shops use, I will mention this. I do quite a bit of working with and "hanging out" at a local glass and trim shop (over 50 years in the biz), and have learned that they will ONLY install winshields in the C3 cars with the modern day urethane (due to the quality of the install and possibility of a leaker retuning),especially with an "insurance job". You will probably find some that will play around with these older installation products and methods, but be sure to inquire about their warranty on materials and workmanship BEFORE having them do the job. Might save some hassle after the fact...
Lynn

[Chuck S.]

Re: 69 Windshield installation advise

...I can see the fabric on my original strip but always thought the glue was part of the fabric, not applied to it...

I'm just curious for more trivia...this won't help anyone install their windshield: What was the damming strip itself made of?...Was it a thin rubber extrusion, or heavy paper that folded back on itself?

[Alan S.]

Re: 69 Windshield installation advise

Hi Chuck,
The strip on my 71 is quite dense foam rubber. I'm not sure what it's off the roll shape was since I only have samples from a strip that was installed. I can tell that the strip did have 1 flat side where the glue was applied.
Here's a drawing I did a few years ago when I was talking to several members on the Board about the strip. The shape of the strip I've drawn represents the strip as I believe it was when installed.
I still have some of the strip from my car's original windshield installation so I have something to compare a strip to if I ever find the original style. I don't, however, think I'll take the windshield out just to replace it. I have to call this car done someday!
Regards,
Alan

This is a section through the windshield header, SS trim, and top of the glass,

[Chuck S.]

Re: 69 Windshield installation advise

Hi Chuck,
The strip on my 71 is quite dense foam rubber. I'm not sure what it's off the roll shape was since I only have samples from a strip that was installed. I can tell that the strip did have 1 flat side where the glue was applied.
Here's a drawing I did a few years ago when I was talking to several members on the Board about the strip. The shape of the strip I've drawn represents the strip as I believe it was when installed.
I still have some of the strip from my car's original windshield installation so I have something to compare a strip to if I ever find the original style. I don't, however, think I'll take the windshield out just to replace it. I have to call this car done someday!
Regards,
Alan

This is a section through the windshield header, SS trim, and top of the glass,

Thanks Alan...nice drawing too.

As to the original vs. installed shape, they could have had a foam damming strip in that "installed" shape, but I'm thinking it's more likely it was initially square or rectangular to simplify manufacturing.

They could have gotten the same appearance by hand "tooling" the front cloth covered face back in under the frame...the face on the glass wasn't going anywhere. For that to work, a square or rectangular section would had to have been taller than the spacers (11/32"?), maybe 3/8"-7/16" or more depending on proximity of the dam to the frame..

Is the cloth color matched to the interior, or is it black or a neutral color? I'm thinking Doc could repro this dam, but even if he was interested, he wouldn't mess with a ton of colors.

[Wayne B.]

Re: 69 Windshield installation advise

I let "the professionals" come out and install my windshield about a month ago and have been kicking myself since. when they got done the top molding wouldn't fit and they said it was bent and i would need a new one then danced down the road. I came back later with some calipers and found that the molding wasn't the problem, they had pressed one side down deeper than the other (after promising they knew how to gap it even) and the gap wasn't the molding being bent at all. After going round with several of their "experts" I came to the conclusion that these glass companies don't have anyone that knows anything about installing these windshields. They just lay down glue, drop the windshield and that is about the extent of the knowledge of their staff.

The real professional knowledge is right here on this forum. Now i get to yank out the mess and do what I should have done in the first place, install it myself. So, don't be intimidated by the project. you have more information in this post alone than any of the "experts" at most glass companies and a heck of a lot more integrity.

[John H.]

Re: 69 Windshield installation advise

I'm just curious for more trivia...this won't help anyone install their windshield: What was the damming strip itself made of?...Was it a thin rubber extrusion, or heavy paper that folded back on itself?

Chuck -

The dam was a high-density nitrile foam rubber extrusion, triangular in cross-section; the Thiokol adhesive was also dispensed on the glass as a triangular shape, which flattened out to about half of its dispensed height when the glass was installed (the spacer blocks set the height of the glass from the flange).

[Lynn H.]

Re: 69 Windshield installation advise

Wayne,
In defense of the modern day glass installers (I actually have a friend in the business), it is not always that they do not know how. Many of them have been in the business as long as our favorite car has been around. I believe many of them have the knowledge and certainly can do it. They have put in more than guys like us will ever install. The problem comes in with the time and care it takes to do this job right. They worry too much about how long it takes, and not enough about the quality of the job. Like many other "specialists", they make money by the hour, and they cannot get enough money out of the job to make it worth their while to do correctly or to our satisfaction. The quick money is in the fast and easy install. And all we want is what we think we are paying for. For this reason, one needs to really search for the ones that will give our cars the attention we demand. I, like you would not hesitate to do this myself. I would rather take the time to learn and do it right, than go through what you have just described.

[Wayne B.]

Re: 69 Windshield installation advise

The reason I doubt the lack of knowledge I saw was, I think, more about knowledge dieing out than anything. The guy comes out, young guy, and actually was interested in getting it in right but he was baffled by an old car and called his father and put me on the phone with him. His dad was retired and spent 45 years as a glass man. We went over what was there, he has a Vette himself then the son called back to the company and it started to become apparent that there was just no one there, out of several guys called into the project, that was versed in older methods. They decided they would return with 3/8" butyl to do the job. When he came back he had another young guy and they laid down the butyl then the windshield but I didn't see any spacers and they relied on the butyl to be the spacer, bad move...for me. So, rather than pay someone to learn it and do it I'll just have to do the learning, uninstalling and installing myself. No more "pros" thank you...if they can do it I can do it.

[Lynn H.]

Re: 69 Windshield installation advise

Wayne,
I totally agree, this is only one of many instances where the old craftsman are truly dying out. Like I said, I have a friend in the business, and his father is still there with him (in his eighties now). I cannot tell you how much I enjoy learning some of the tricks of the trade from this old timer (it was the same in my early toolmaking days). I have learned a vast amount of knowledge about making seat covers and convertible tops from scratch, as well as the installation of the same. Sometimes, I have to pry it out of him, as he thinks if he tells me too many secrets, he will get less business (this is the truth). There is nothing like the satisfaction you get from doing it yourself and doing it right. It just takes time. I rag at my kids all the time about how everything is about instant gratification, no one wants to take the time to learn, they just want. I believe our society suffers from this.
GOOD LUCK with that windshield, I am sure it will turn out perfect.
Lynn

[Chuck S.]

Re: 69 Windshield installation advise

Thanks, John.