Make Me Smarter...

[Jack H.]

The '66 Judging Guide acknowledges there were two interior mirrors for 1966: (1) standard and (2) optional non-glare. The optional mirror is commonly referred to as a day/night mirror.

I think we agree that the D/N mirror was a dealer accessory in 1964, part of the Z01 Comfort and Convenience Group option in 1965 and a standard feature in 1967. Noland Adams states the D/N mirror became a standard feature in 1966 when the planned Z01 option was dropped on 9/9/65 and both backup lights and the D/N mirror became standard features of the car.

Noland's been found to be wrong on many items in the past. Plus, we had a thread on this subject not too long ago where the concensus was the JG book was correct: standard car had standard interior mirror in '66 and the D/N mirror was an option.

OK, Noland says in his text on the '65 Z01 option: "Option Z01 combined options D31 (day/nite inside rearview mirror) and T86 (backup lamps). I didn't know there was a Chevy option designation for just the D/N mirror. So, the reference to D31 was new information for me...

Now, when I look at the list of factory option offered in 1966 (NCRS Judging Guide, Black Book, Etc.), I simply don't see the D/N mirror called out. So, how do we justify it being an 'option' (not a dealer accessory) in 1966 if there wasn't a mechanism to order it from the factory?

I received no reply from the current NTL on this query. Curious minds want to know. It was either (a) standard feature, (b) a legitimate factory option or (c) dealer accessory. Which is it?

If either a or c, then our descriptive text needs to change along with our judging scoring treatment. If it's b, then we need to document the factory option RPO that triggered the mirror's installation. What say you guys?

[Gary J.]

Re: Make Me Smarter...

Jack, this is going to be interesting. My '66 has tinted glass, A/C, standard interior, and the standard mirror. I have a friend that has a '66 with A/C, standard interior, tinted glass, and he has the day/night mirror.

[Rich P.]

Re: Make Me Smarter...

Here is what I think. They were just useing up excess standard mirrors in 66 as they dropped the option and the day night became standerd. No documentation to back it up but it makes the most sence.

Rich

[Jack H.]

Re: Make Me Smarter...

That's plausible, Rich. And, if it is the case, then the judging text shouldn't say the D/N mirror was an 'option'. Plus, there should be some guidance as to when the inventory of standard mirrors was exhausted, eh?

My recollection is on our last DB thread on the issue we had QUITE a range of date-build '66 cars that claimed factory original standard mirrors installed. You'd think they'd have exhausted the factory on-hand inventory of left over '65 standard mirrors relatively quickly (a few months maybe)...

Plus, I'd wonder if there was an official factory 'dart board' to select which of the '66 cars going down the assy line was going to get LUCKY and receive the peachy keen, neato, D/N mirror, eh? The two mirrors had to have been binned separately as they had different GM PN's...

[Peter L.]

Re: Make Me Smarter...

Jack - Trying to make you smarter is a challenge, ; but when we were updating the 66 TIM&JG this topic came up and the interior folks did some extensive looking into how, what, when, and where the day/night mirror came to be on 66 Corvettes and the day/night mirror is listed as as "an optional non-glare (day/night) mirror" in the new 1966 TIM&JG; so I'm expecting there is a thread, e.g., Service memo, RPO, Factory Option, and/or ordering information, that supports this conclusion. As far as additional information, "A prismatic mirror that can be changed from a clear daytime mirror to a night non-glare mirror for greater driving safety, by a twist of the button below the mirror" is listed in the 1966 Chevrolet Custom Feature Accessories literature under "INSIDE NON-GLARE REAR VIEW MIRRORS." The 8" mirror is Part No. 986600.
Pete

[Gary J.]

Re: Make Me Smarter...

Here is what I think. They were just useing up excess standard mirrors in 66 as they dropped the option and the day night became standerd. No documentation to back it up but it makes the most sence.


My car is a June car, so they were still using standard mirrors then.

[Wayne M.]

Re: Make Me Smarter...

Here's my 2 bits -- first of all, a few pics of a day/night # 985657, which lists in the '65 P&A30 (1st issue, Oct '64) as 1963-65 Corvette "Mirror Unit, inside, non-glare prismatic". But this number does not show in the '65 AIM RPO Z01, and was removed per the parts history on 5-66 [but not replaced by another number]

Was there a physical difference between the 1965 and 1966 day/night mirrors ? I don't think so.

OK, so let's move on to the 1966 P&A30, (1st issue, Oct '65). Repeats the '65 catalog for '63-65, ie. # 985657, but lists another for 1966 alone; Pete's # 986600 , which certainly implies that it must be different from the '65 version.

Then, in the 1967 P&A30 (1st issue, Oct '66): still shows # 986600 as the day/night for 1966 AND 1967. Nothing for '63-65 , an inadvertent omission ?

Unfortunately, I don't have a '68 Body parts book (only Chassis), so, moving on to 1969 P&A30 (Rev. 7-1-69), they seem to have dropped all day/night service mirrors for the C2's, and the parts history indicates that # 986600 was removed (in service) on 5-67; ie. no supercession, just like the '65 # 985657. Perhaps this was a safety issue -- all inside mirrors defaulting to the latest design for 1969, # 916177, and I assume these were all day/night design.

[Jack H.]

Re: Make Me Smarter...

Naw, no challenge! This dawg learns new tricks every day...

Point is the descriptive text in the new edition of the JG book is identical to that offered by the prior 4th Edition book. BTW, I don't see an edition number on my copy of the new JG book...is that another 'opps' issue?

So, the policy of having a standard, non-D/N, mirror and an optional D/N mirror for 1966 is well established at NCRS. My question, again, is if the D/N mirror was a real factory option in '66, there HAD to be some way to order it. Therefore, where's the applicable RPO designator????

If it wasn't a factory option, then it was either a standard feature or it should be dealt with as a dealer accessory (as it was in '64) and qualify for a full deduction during judging. That's where I'm hung up. We can't have it both ways...

Judges routinely deduct for D/N mirrors present on '64 Corvettes as well as on '65 Corvettes without backup lights. So, how do we justify letting both mirrors 'slide' by for '66?

I took your suggestion and reviewed the Technical Service Bulletins published in the newest release of the JG book, Pete. Unfortunately, narry a one talks about the interior mirror... So, I remain confused and want to get 'smarter' on this!

Heck, I just might have '66 cars show up at a local Chapter meet where, as Judging Chairman I'd be asked to make a ruling on the subject. Right now, I either take Noland as a source and agree that any 'late' car with a standard mirror should receive a full deduction or somehow 'swallow' that the JG is right and there was an 'invisible' factory option for the sucka that didn't have an official RPO designation. The later is a tough position to defend!

[Pat M.]

Re: Make Me Smarter...

Jack - Trying to make you smarter is a challenge,

That's the first thing I thought! If we need to make Jack smarter we're all in trouble!

[Jean C.]

Re: Make Me Smarter...

Maybe expand his knowledge, but make him smarter? Hmmmmm.
Best to you UJ,

[Jack P.]

Re: Make Me Smarter...

Naw, no challenge! This dawg learns new tricks every day...

Point is the descriptive text in the new edition of the JG book is identical to that offered by the prior 4th Edition book. BTW, I don't see an edition number on my copy of the new JG book...is that another 'opps' issue?

So, the policy of having a standard, non-D/N, mirror and an optional D/N mirror for 1966 is well established at NCRS. My question, again, is if the D/N mirror was a real factory option in '66, there HAD to be some way to order it. Therefore, where's the applicable RPO designator????

If it wasn't a factory option, then it was either a standard feature or it should be dealt with as a dealer accessory (as it was in '64) and qualify for a full deduction during judging. That's where I'm hung up. We can't have it both ways...

Judges routinely deduct for D/N mirrors present on '64 Corvettes as well as on '65 Corvettes without backup lights. So, how do we justify letting both mirrors 'slide' by for '66?

I took your suggestion and reviewed the Technical Service Bulletins published in the newest release of the JG book, Pete. Unfortunately, narry a one talks about the interior mirror... So, I remain confused and want to get 'smarter' on this!

Heck, I just might have '66 cars show up at a local Chapter meet where, as Judging Chairman I'd be asked to make a ruling on the subject. Right now, I either take Noland as a source and agree that any 'late' car with a standard mirror should receive a full deduction or somehow 'swallow' that the JG is right and there was an 'invisible' factory option for the sucka that didn't have an official RPO designation. The later is a tough position to defend!

Hi, Question, I have a late 66 Roadster, April , 7, 66. It has a standard mirror, very pitted, I would like to put in a D/N mirror. Will that be correct. And why would I have a standard mirror that late in the year? It is the original mirror.

Jack

[Ronald L.]

Re: Make Me Smarter...

April 28, standard mirror, full tint, std interior.

Good question, I agree with Jack, we should have definition clear, who was in the plant slipping these d/n on the cars, if they were ever there in 1966? the floor sweeper?

Who supplied the mirrors? Are they still in business?

John???

[Peter L.]

Re: Make Me Smarter...

Jack - Here's another data point for the standard mirror. Our 1966 Corvette, S/N 25305, has the original dated (it sure looks like it) standard mirror. Pete

[Peter L.]

Re: Make Me Smarter...

The answer to this one is easy.
According to the 1966 Chevrolet Custom Feature Accessories Catalog the Inside Non-glare Rear View Mirrors were Part of Factory Option No's Z-01 and Z-13. So all we need to do is find out who the person was in the Corvette Plant who was in charge of those options for the 1966 Corvette. They should know the answer.
OK, I checked the 1966 Corvette AIM and it looks like maybe the answer won't be so easy.
Pete

[Jack H.]

Re: Make Me Smarter...

OK, I checked the 1966 Corvette AIM and it looks like maybe the answer won't be so easy.

Ah, breakthrough--grey room! Das waz my point. The '66 option list for Corvette that Noland shows lists Z01. The NCRS JG book doesn't list the Z01 option at all.

When you turn to Noland's description, he says the option was withdrawn on 9/9/65 and the components of the Comfort & Convenience Group (T86) backup lights and (D31) D/N mirror became standard features of the car.

Looks like the official NCRS position agrees with 50% of Noland's assertion, T86 backup lights WERE a standard feature of the car. But, we say the D/N mirror was an 'option'. Unfortunately, neither we nor anyone else list D31 as a legitimate '66 Corvette factory option...

Also, we show the same 'standard' mirror as that used in the '64-65 time frame. But, Catch-22, the base mirror from those years was one of TWO parts: 910453 or 3849571 which were [OPT] on the assy line.

This is a source of judging confusion on the earlier cars because one is a purchased part (Donnelly) while the other was a GM captive product (Guide). Guide did NOT date their mirror glass, while Donnelly did. So, JG text on the earlier cars ONLY cites the Donnelly dating sequence X-DMI-Y. That leaves the novice judge wanting to take deduction(s) for a legitimate Guide interior mirror because it lacks the cited date code sequence...

What's of interest here is that those two PN's for the base interior mirror did NOT carry over into '66 for any of Chevy's cars. Across the Chevy line, these mirrors (both PN's) were dropped from the respective AIM books on 8/26/65 (full size Chevy), 8/65 (Chevy II/Nova), and 8/10/65 Corvette.

The D/N mirror used in '64/65 was 910597 and a Chevrolet line search shows it called out being in the Z01 package for '64/65 Nova and '65 Corvette and nowhere else (my PN search excludes Corvair and Chevy Truck AIM books).

Bottom line, there's a 'twist' here on interior mirror useage in 1966 (both standard and D/N) that doesn't jive. If we think this/that mirror for '66 was a carry-over from earlier years, then either/both changed GM PN for some reason(s)...

Wasn't this about the time Ralph Nader was getting big press with his 'Unsafe At Any Speed' book? I vaugely remember one of his points being the interior mirror's native design being a cause of facial lacerations.

My hunch is that's why the '67 version of the interior mirror adopted the rubber surround outside the edge of the glass and why the actuator knob changed from the lower protruding 'tear drop' knob to the fold-back, L-shaped lever (legislation).

There's a story here. I don't fully understand it.

We seem to have TOO MANY examples of mixed interior mirrors (standard vs. D/N) on '66 cars to ignore. BUT, we don't document how the D/N version of the mirror was actually ordered for a Corvette. Nor, do we talk about WHY the PN's for both versions of the mirror changed in '66...