Got Fuelie problems?

[Chip M.]

My '64 FI TI Roadster quit on me and I needed help. I had the FI unit rebuilt but it never ran right afterwards. It was too rich, didn't accelerate like I thought it should and now it quit.

I reached back in the old memory bank and the NCRS Tech Discussion Boards and found an old friend Jim Gessner (943). I called Jim and he recommended Gary Summerville (6989) in Houston. After a long discussion and a day at the Pate swap meet (I was 6'2", after the swap meet I am 6' 1/4"), Gary recommended loading up the car and taking it to Jerry Bramlett in Mobile Alabama ( http://www.jerrybramlett.net/ ). After Gary does a FI unit he sends it to Jerry to dyno tune it, so he suggested I skip a step and go directly to the guru himself.

I had already had the FI unit worked on by two gurus. One self proclaimed and another widely advertised so am a little shy about "experts".

Jerry was very patient with me and dropped everything to attack my problem. We took the FI off and dissected it piece by little piece. He showed me every single place I lost my FI virginity. Stock parts had been replaced by reproduction parts. The repro parts were not very good at best. There was epoxy where the sun don't shine. There was epoxy where GM never intended epoxy to be. The high pressure pump had been virtually destroyed and would have to be sleeved to be salvaged.

It was like watching your own colonoscopy... very slowly. The upshot was that all was repairable.

After a complete rebuild (again) we fitted the unit to the engine and hit the starter....nothing. Again RRRR, RRRR, and nothing. It wouldn't fire.

What do you mean you brought a NAPA coil to my shop! Sorry Jerry! After replacing the shiny new NAPA coil with an "NCRS Correct" 1965 907 rusty coil, it growled to life with a roar. Hurrah! It runs again!

The next day we took it to the dyno shop and Jerry did his magic. A tweak here. A bit of chin scratching and a tweak there and it was finished.

This car has never run as strong as after Jerry Bramlett http://www.jerrybramlett.net/ finished it off with a little tune up.

Got fuelie problems? Go to Jerry and skip all the rhetoric. Oh, be sure to read his web site before calling him. He is a self professed cantankerous old guy and he will let you know.

I learned more in two days working with Jerry than 25 years owning a fuelie. I had a great time and feel I have another friend in the hobby.

One good thing about the other two guys, the float was set correctly!

[Tom P.]

Re: Got Fuelie problems?

Sooooooooooooooo, the problem possibly/probably wasn't the FI unit after all, just a faulty coil.

[Jim L.]

Re: Got Fuelie problems?

The repro parts were not very good at best. There was epoxy where the sun don't shine. There was epoxy where GM never intended epoxy to be.!

Epoxy, eh? I bet some of the epoxy was on the axle and link. And if it was I know where that axle and link came from and why it didn't work.

Four FI units with epoxy on the axle and link assembly crossed my bench last calendar year. None of the four units worked properly and all exhibited the same symptoms. The cause was the epoxied axle and link assemblies were too stiff to respond to main diaphragm vacuum. They are garbage.

If you encounter an epoxied axle and link, replace it. You'll be glad you did.

Jim

[Chip M.]

Re: Got Fuelie problems?

Sooooooooooooooo, the problem possibly/probably wasn't the FI unit after all, just a faulty coil.

Actually, it was both. As I said, it never ran right after I got it back. One thing I didn't mention was that I sent the unit in because it had a fuel leak. When I got it back, it had a fuel leak. I decided I had enough experts look at it so I took it off and found a pinched o-ring. After finding the o-ring and fixing it, the car bogged down badly.

So yes, the coil was one of the problems but it lead me to Jerry. Now my car runs great and I am confident the FI unit was done correctly this time with no leaks.

[Hank P.]

Re: Got Fuelie problems?

I had my 65 fuel injection unit recently rebuilt by Jack Podell. When the unit was returned, I installed it back in the car and fired her up. All of a sudden I watch frantically that fuel was gushing out through the fuel vent that sits on top of the fuel meter.
I met Jim Gessner on the forum and he recommended Chris Wickersham out of Pasadena Ca. I took the unit off and dropped it by Chris's shop. He found out that I had a cracked float taking on fuel. After finding a NOS float I was back in business, at least I thought I did.

Since the unit was still off I decided to check the engines compression, great 150 pounds on all cylinders. I installed new replacement plug wires, condenser, points, rotor and cap. Set the dwell and timed it for 12degrees advance. Fired it up and it sounded great.

Here is my problem, when it hits 35-4000rpm and above on a hard peddle it bogs down, hesitates, bucks a few times and then zooms off.

Any thoughts?

[John D.]

Re: Got Fuelie problems?

Sounds like a great topic for a restorer article...great cars and great people !!

[Jim L.]

Re: Got Fuelie problems?

when it hits 35-4000rpm and above on a hard peddle it bogs down, hesitates, bucks a few times and then zooms off.

What you are describing is consistent with a massive lean stumble.

Assuming the axle and link and the spill valve are able to move freely, and that's a big assumption, I'd look at the overall calibration of the unit. In particular, the vacuum threshold at which the enrichment diaphragm tries to move the ratio lever to the economy stop. My hunch is that threshold is set too low.... meaning the ratio lever is transitioning the unit to a lean economy mixture too rapidly.

Of course, the set points of the power stop and the economy stop could also be off. But my bet is on the adjustment of the enrichment diaphragm.

Jim

[Jerry G.]

Re: Got Fuelie problems?

What you are describing is consistent with a massive lean stumble.

Assuming the axle and link and the spill valve are able to move freely, and that's a big assumption, I'd look at the overall calibration of the unit. In particular, the vacuum threshold at which the enrichment diaphragm tries to move the ratio lever to the economy stop. My hunch is that threshold is set too low.... meaning the ratio lever is transitioning the unit to a lean economy mixture too rapidly.

Of course, the set points of the power stop and the economy stop could also be off. But my bet is on the adjustment of the enrichment diaphragm.

Jim

Jim just a point of clarification, by set too low you are saying the vacuum at which the the transition occurs is too low ie if the ratio lever moves from rich to lean at say 8"Hg it may need to be moved to 12"Hg Is that correct or do I have it back wards Jerry

[Jim L.]

Re: Got Fuelie problems?

Jim just a point of clarification, by set too low you are saying the vacuum at which the the transition occurs is too low ie if the ratio lever moves from rich to lean at say 8"Hg it may need to be moved to 12"Hg Is that correct or do I have it back wards Jerry

Hi Jerry,

You have it right. If it can be shown that the ratio lever is transitioning to the economy stop too soon, then you want to increase the vacuum threshold at which it begins moving towards the power stop. Do this by lengthening the push rod that actuates the ratio lever.

Jim

[Roger W.]

Re: Got Fuelie problems?

It is too bad that you had all of that trouble with your F I unit, but sometimes bad problems have good outcomes.
You probably got more knowledge out of those two days at Jerry's shop than any course you could have taken.
When my wife and I get in over our heads in our rental proerty busines and have to call a profesional tradesman, we always pick their brains. Most of them are happy to explain what they are doing. The next time that we have a simialar problem we can usually take care of it ourselves or know what to have a profesonal do. We call these Profesional fees; "Paying for an education."

[Chip M.]

Re: Got Fuelie problems?

I feel like I got a college degree in Rochescter FI in two days.

[Chip M.]

Re: Got Fuelie problems?

Hank, I had the same experience except my float was just stuck. It was a flood of gas out of the top of the fuel bowl. Then, the leak on the bottom showed up.

[Hank P.]

Re: Got Fuelie problems?

Thank you for the advise Jim. I will check it out. On a side note, I forgot to mention that I performed a vacuum test off the line that feeds into the vacuum advance and only got 9in. hg. The book says that it should be 20. I do not know if the original cam is in the car, I understand that the cam lobe has an effect on the vacuum reading.

Hank

[Hank P.]

Re: Got Fuelie problems?

Chip, it sure is a scary feeling watching fuel running over your car engine and especially the exhaust pipes. Hold on the fire extinguisher!

[Chip M.]

Re: Got Fuelie problems?

Thank you for the advise Jim. I will check it out. On a side note, I forgot to mention that I performed a vacuum test off the line that feeds into the vacuum advance and only got 9in. hg. The book says that it should be 20. I do not know if the original cam is in the car, I understand that the cam lobe has an effect on the vacuum reading.

Hank

One of the first things Jerry checked when we got her running again was the vacuum. Jerry said 12" is about minimum. Vacuum is critical on these units as that's the whole basis for operation.

Not only the cam lobe affects the operation but the gap. If you have power brakes, check the booster. It may be leaking. You need to get the vacuum up first then consider finding someone that can dyno tune it. I had a ball running it while Jerry tweaked and it runs GREAT!