Aftermarket components and NCRS

[John H.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

I think a category of driven Corvettes would be great, but it sounds like that is an argument that has been made before and has been decided against.

Fred

Fred -

That's why we have the Sportsman class, to recognize member participation and "driven" Corvettes.

[Frederick W.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

Fred,

2 1/2 years ago my wife and I drove from Florida to Virginia in Dec 07 to check out a 63 swc, original 300 hp PG. We bought it, rented a U-haul and took it home. Our first C2. The car was for her. It had aftermarket AC and upgraded 67 style power front disks, and power steering added by the PO's.
You remember the car on the CFFS forum....We spoke about yours after that.

We took it to Kissimmee for the Regional, at the urges of some of the folks here to get it checked out for Star Awards(not Flighted). Much of the car was original, other than the added items. It had 67,400 original documented titled miles. I also took my 59(owned 23 yrs then) with a 61 block for Flight Judging. I drove the 59, wife drove the 63, it was 100 miles or so.

The 63 had to go in with the flighted cars to be checked out for potential Star Awards. It was judged just like a flighted car, but no points, just pass/fail. It was a bit rough, some flaking 45 year old paint, but everyone there was so interested in looking at it. It drew much attention because it was quite original, unrestored, even though a bit modified. After the analysis we realized it was not a candidate because of too many changes and modifications. Sure I could have changed everything back and gone for stars later, but we kept it with the extra equipment as-is, new interior, cleaned up the engine bay, and had fun with the car. We put over 10,000 miles on it until it sold a few months ago.

Ok, Ok I'll get to the point. IMHO...........
Take the car as-is. Don't go to just try to get a Top Flight. Go there to have fun. Go there to learn, and above all go there to meet some great people and see some great cars. Let it be judged the way it is and you can learn more about it, then decide if TF is what you really want. Go there and people will check the car and see just how original all the other stuff is, and they will learn. If I was there I'd be all over it too, to learn and have fun.
If you want to guarantee a Top Flight, remove the AC, get the original heater box($$$), change the wheels back, spend more money, and then you'll have to undo it all afterwards to get back to the way you really want it.

BTW, I just missed 2nd flight in my 59, but I had a blast. I was happy to walk away with a 3rd Flight, knowing I learned much and had a great time. In fact, I even brought out some wrong things about the car that some of the judges missed. Other ones beat me up pretty bad, but I smiled and said "do what you gotta do." Attitude is what it's all about. Go with the right attitude and you'll enjoy yourself. I went for the fun, not just the ribbon. Would I do it that way again, absolutely.

On the other hand, my next car will be a Top Flight candidate, whatever that is.... I haven't found it yet. I will do it just for that, from scratch. Then watch out, I'll be picky about everything!

Rich

Thanks Rich,

Good advice, that's what I think I'll do to learn about the car and the process.
What's the issue with the heater box?

Fred

[Roy B.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

Rich! Has my attitude, enter the car meet great people and old friends and I don't need a ribbon but like having people see it.

John! That's where I mostly enter my 55, BUT it's only a paid parking lot with protection , not judged and few people take the time to look at them if there not being judged

[John H.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

What's the issue with the heater box?

Fred

Fred -

The aftermarket A/C units (Vintage Air, etc.) replace both the engine compartment and passenger compartment heater blower and core cases; in judging, those components are "missing", so they get a full deduction for both originality and condition.

[Frederick W.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

Fred -

The aftermarket A/C units (Vintage Air, etc.) replace both the engine compartment and passenger compartment heater blower and core cases; in judging, those components are "missing", so they get a full deduction for both originality and condition.

Gotcha,
actually my AC unit (Chisenhall, later purchased by Hot Rod Air) around 1990 model, does none of that, I don't think.
There is no ductwork for the AC unit, it just blows out of the evaporator case under the glove box. The later models made by HRA apparently add the ductwork and heater box replacement.
These early models were marketed specifically because they required little or no modification and no "drilling in any metal". It even bolts to the brace under the glovebox using existing holes.
Only significant modification I see is the two holes drilled in the firewall to route the hoses.
thanks
Fred

[Richard M.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

Gotcha,
actually my AC unit (Chisenhall, later purchased by Hot Rod Air) around 1990 model, does none of that, I don't think.
There is no ductwork for the AC unit, it just blows out of the evaporator case under the glove box. The later models made by HRA apparently add the ductwork and heater box replacement.
These early models were marketed specifically because they required little or no modification and no "drilling in any metal". It even bolts to the brace under the glovebox using existing holes.
Only significant modification I see is the two holes drilled in the firewall to route the hoses.
thanks
Fred

Ahhh, I see now. Our 63 was the replacement type with new heater/evaporator box replacing the original. The glove box had to be replaced with a shallower unit, and had the ducts under the dash in the corners. Yours is the generic type, which is better for the car itself as it takes less modification.

Have fun at the event, & stay !(pun intended)

Rich

[Frederick W.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

Ouch,
just got my NCRS judging manual in the mail and looked at it this evening.
I'm overwhelmed by the detail. I have an aftermarket flex fan added with the ac unit. I've been looking at replacing with an original 5 blade fan with fan clutch. The judging guide specs describe ink stampings on the clutch and two acceptable varieties, patent stampings, zinc dicrhomate plating , black oxide finish on the shaft and flange, cadmium or zinc plating on the bolts, etc. This effectively rules out all the reasonably priced repro units on the market it seems.

If this is the standard, I'd say even my fairly original unmolested car would need to be put back together piece by piece to qualify.

I guess it wouldn't hurt to go the judge and learn route first. Then when I get my 5x10^32 flight ranking at least I'll know :0

Oh well, I'm only 46 (well 47 next month) so hopefully I've got a good 40 years in me to keep at it...

Fred

[Jack H.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

We have that award/recognition category and many overlook it! It's called the NCRS Founders Award.

I've done it 5-6 times (which is part of the reason my restored '71 has 65K miles on the clock now) and it's a BALL! There's a 'bit' of Flight Judging involved and a LOT of actual driving/use wrapped up in this award.

So, if you want to drive/use your Corvette and you want to capture an NCRS award with your modified driver, don't put a square peg in a round hole (try to get Top Flight/Mark of Excellence), consider a run at the Founders Award.

Plus, remember--NCRS is the only factory concours organization that gives mileage driven credits for those cars that are actually driven to a meet. So, in many cases, you can compensate for those non-stock modifications to your car by simply putting gas in the tank and DRIVING the car to a meet (the further the better!).

The problem here is basically one of not understanding what our 'mission statement' is for Flight judged cars and then 'bitching/grousing' about this/that deduction that was made for the non-original aspect(s) of the car that the owner did intentionally. Again, don't put a square peg in a round hole and you'll have FUN at an NCRS meet!!!

[Jack H.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

Buy and read the 'other' book--NCRS Judging Reference Manual.

Bone up on the Founders Award and the mileage driven credit issues.

Once you understand the bigger picture of our system (there ARE other awards beyond basic Flight), I think you'll see things differently. But, you ARE right...it's a MAJOR job to capture a Top Flight Award with a modified Corvette that's basically a driver car, albeit a 'clean' machine.

That's intentional. The object of Flight Judging is to compare each candidate car to our standard (as originally built and delivered without modification). And, YES, it's a labor of love to climb that hill...

Last, you're RIGHT ON about judging. How many Corvettes can you own and restore in a lifetime? But, when you get active and start judging, you have the opportunity to get up close and see virtually ALL of them for just the cost of your time/travel!

[Frederick W.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

We have that award/recognition category and many overlook it! It's called the NCRS Founders Award.

I've done it 5-6 times (which is part of the reason my restored '71 has 65K miles on the clock now) and it's a BALL! There's a 'bit' of Flight Judging involved and a LOT of actual driving/use wrapped up in this award.

So, if you want to drive/use your Corvette and you want to capture an NCRS award with your modified driver, don't put a square peg in a round hole (try to get Top Flight/Mark of Excellence), consider a run at the Founders Award.

Plus, remember--NCRS is the only factory concours organization that gives mileage driven credits for those cars that are actually driven to a meet. So, in many cases, you can compensate for those non-stock modifications to your car by simply putting gas in the tank and DRIVING the car to a meet (the further the better!).

The problem here is basically one of not understanding what our 'mission statement' is for Flight judged cars and then 'bitching/grousing' about this/that deduction that was made for the non-original aspect(s) of the car that the owner did intentionally. Again, don't put a square peg in a round hole and you'll have FUN at an NCRS meet!!!

Sounds great, thanks
Now, I just hope that my vaunted driver doesn't give me any surprises on the way to the meet. Always an adventure when your ride is as old as you are (we were both "born" in '63)!

[Frederick W.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

Buy and read the 'other' book--NCRS Judging Reference Manual.

Bone up on the Founders Award and the mileage driven credit issues.

Once you understand the bigger picture of our system (there ARE other awards beyond basic Flight), I think you'll see things differently. But, you ARE right...it's a MAJOR job to capture a Top Flight Award with a modified Corvette that's basically a driver car, albeit a 'clean' machine.

That's intentional. The object of Flight Judging is to compare each candidate car to our standard (as originally built and delivered without modification). And, YES, it's a labor of love to climb that hill...

Last, you're RIGHT ON about judging. How many Corvettes can you own and restore in a lifetime? But, when you get active and start judging, you have the opportunity to get up close and see virtually ALL of them for just the cost of your time/travel!

Yes, a labor of love awaits.
Of course, my kids are a labor of love, too, but it doesn't mean I don't want to strangle 'em now and then.
BTW, when I said "go the judge and learn route", I meant having my car judged and learning from that. I didn't mean to become a judge, but maybe that would be a fun thing to do some day, too.
I'll order up the judging reference manual and read about the founders awards and driving credit.
Looks like I've got a lifetime hobby.
Thanks Jack

Fred