Aftermarket components and NCRS

[Frederick W.]

I have a mostly (almost entirely) original 63 SWC. I drive it every weekend and nice evening here in Tulsa.
The car has a couple of non-original components that add greatly to my enjoyment of it:

1. Aftermarket AC from Hot Rod Air (actually Chisenhall before the rights were bought by Hot Rod Air, which is apparently now out of business, but I digress...).

2. Stock style power steering

3. Repro knock offs

I like the first two way too much to give 'em up. The knock offs could be removed for judging if I can find a set of wheels and 63 hubcaps.

If I get the car in good original and correct condition otherwise, how much will I be hurt in judging by the above non-original components?

Thanks!
Fred

[Roy B.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

If your looking to get top flight and the rest of the 63 is Correct you can still make top flight. I should know , my 55 has many items of enjoyment . I lost points on my wheels and still took a top flight. NCRS judges are good guys most of the time. Only if you added extra holes to the body you lose points for accessories. Go for it!

[Jack H.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

That's an easy one. For owner/dealer 'inspired' option configuration changes, the NCRS policy (see Judging Reference Manual) calls for a full deduction of both the originality and condition points associated with the option as well as supporting components affected.

Take the aftermarket A/C. Flip your copy of the Flight Score Sheet to Mechanical, Section 17, Heating or A/C. There are 45 points associated with engine compartment components, so you'll lose those whereas a non-A/C equipped car without aftermarket A/C would gain them. That's 1% of the 4500 point total Flight Score.

You'll probably lose more points when it comes to interior since you have 'extra' non-factory original support components (A/C ducts and A/C controls) inside the car. Expect to lose some more judging points there.

On the KO wheels, only a handful of cars (built for trade shows, built for key GM executives) are documented to have them. The Judging Guide gives specific guidance for a FULL deduction on regular production 1963 Corvettes equipped with KO's of any form...that's another 75 points.

The 'stock style' power steering will be judged, component by component to its factory equivalent original counterpart...

[Roy B.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

That's an easy one. For owner/dealer 'inspired' option configuration changes, the NCRS policy (see Judging Reference Manual) calls for a full deduction of both the originality and condition points associated with the option as well as supporting components affected.

Take the aftermarket A/C. Flip your copy of the Flight Score Sheet to Mechanical, Section 17, Heating or A/C. There are 45 points associated with engine compartment components, so you'll lose those whereas a non-A/C equipped car without aftermarket A/C would gain them. That's 1% of the 4500 point total Flight Score.

You'll probably lose more points when it comes to interior since you have 'extra' non-factory original support components (A/C ducts and A/C controls) inside the car. Expect to lose some more judging points there.

On the KO wheels, only a handful of cars (built for trade shows, built for key GM executives) are documented to have them. The Judging Guide gives specific guidance for a FULL deduction on regular production 1963 Corvettes equipped with KO's of any form...that's another 75 points.

The 'stock style' power steering will be judged, component by component to its factory equivalent original counterpart...

My understanding is that you can have items in the interior (accessories or after market) "IF" it doesn't add a hole in the body to install. Say like my look-out-mirrors , or dice or mats and so on. If I added a hole to install one I'll take a hit for that hole only, not the accessory. I'm I right?

[Jack H.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

It's not really that hard...Flight Judging is a form of an 'open book' test. The 'book' is the Judging Reference Manual and the applicable Judging Guide. From the Judging Reference Manual, Section 2, Rule 2, NCRS Judging Standard:

"Cars are to be judged to the standard of vehicle appearance, and as equipped, at the time and point of final assembly by the Chevrolet Motor Division of General Motors Corporation. Presentation for judging is to be in the condition normally associated with that of a Corvette which has undergone the then-current standard Chevrolet Dealer New Car Preparation for delivery to a purchaser, exclusive of any dealer or purchaser inspired, additions, deletions or changes."

So, convince me (and yourself) that those 'dice', 'mats', 'look-out mirrors' and other accessories, comply with the standard, Roy. Methinks you'll be hard pressed for a convincing argument...

I routinely deduct for 'extra' items found during judging scrutiny like house keys/spare change in the ash tray, foreign items in the glove box line a tire pressure gauge, a garage door opener on the sun visor, 'things' under the seats, Etc.

Our judging IS a form of 'concours' and those extra/personal items simply weren't there went the car finished dealer prep and the keys were handed to the original owner.

You can assign the extra/foreign object(s) either to the score sheet line item they're associated with as an originality issue or deal with them under the applicable cleanliness line of that judging section. These are an 'originality' issue in my view.

To the extent the car was modified to attach/install them, that's another issue. The mounting hole wasn't there from the factory/dealer and the material removed IS also a deviation from our standard.

[Roy B.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

It's not really that hard...Flight Judging is a form of an 'open book' test. The 'book' is the Judging Reference Manual and the applicable Judging Guide. From the Judging Reference Manual, Section 2, Rule 2, NCRS Judging Standard:

"Cars are to be judged to the standard of vehicle appearance, and as equipped, at the time and point of final assembly by the Chevrolet Motor Division of General Motors Corporation. Presentation for judging is to be in the condition normally associated with that of a Corvette which has undergone the then-current standard Chevrolet Dealer New Car Preparation for delivery to a purchaser, exclusive of any dealer or purchaser inspired, additions, deletions or changes."

So, convince me (and yourself) that those 'dice', 'mats', 'look-out mirrors' and other accessories, comply with the standard, Roy. Methinks you'll be hard pressed for a convincing argument...

I routinely deduct for 'extra' items found during judging scrutiny like house keys/spare change in the ash tray, foreign items in the glove box line a tire pressure gauge, a garage door opener on the sun visor, 'things' under the seats, Etc.

Our judging IS a form of 'concours' and those extra/personal items simply weren't there went the car finished dealer prep and the keys were handed to the original owner.

You can assign the extra/foreign object(s) either to the score sheet line item they're associated with as an originality issue or deal with them under the applicable cleanliness line of that judging section. These are an 'originality' issue in my view.

To the extent the car was modified to attach/install them, that's another issue. The mounting hole wasn't there from the factory/dealer and the material removed IS also a deviation from our standard.

WOW! I believe your a good judge and mean well, BUT I hope if I ever have my 55 judged again your not the judge! (then people should remove the NCRS sticker , fire bottle, battery disconnect) . I've had the best older top judges in the country judge my 55 in 05 national and they dint think that way at all. Yes I lost points but deserved it on the wheels and other parts. Again WOW!

[Jack H.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

NCRS Sticker, fire extinguisher and battery disconnect switch are specifically addressed in the Judging Reference Manual as exceptions to the rule. See Section 2, Rule 25, Safety, Security, Other Allowance & Scoring Points, Roy.

I don't understand 'WOW'...

It's the owner's responsibility to ready the car for placement on the Judging Field and our Flight Judging IS a form of concours. Those 'get ready' responsibility items include cleaning the car and putting it in 'show' condition, ready for judging.

There's no different standard in terms of, say, cleanliness, for cars driven to a judging meet vs. those cars brought by trailer to the meet. We have one set of standards for all Corvettes being judged.

Often, we explain to owners what they should already have read and known... Remove your floor mats. Please put your soft top up. Remove your spare tire. It always strikes me how few have bought and read the Judging Reference Manual when they've gone to GREAT LENGTHS to have read the Judging Guide & spent either the personal time or paid a restoration shop big $$$ to get their car ready. But, that's (explaining to owners what they need to do to ready the car for judging) just part of helping a fellow member understand our system.

I always cover these things (even though I shouldn't have to) as part of my owner's introduction/car acceptance letter AND I go over it again during the owner's meeting at my chapter meets. Plus, I ask my Team Leaders to look for issues and give the owner(s) a 'heads up' as part of their trim/VIN tag inspection duty.

But, for those who either don't get it, or fail to execute reasonable due diligence in terms of car preparation, a lost point here/there DOES get the point across...

When you let this/that 'slide', the question becomes where do your draw the line? In our case, the 'standard' is pretty clear and we publish it.

Now that doesn't mean you sit back and wait, lurking, for that novice to 'screw up' and then go CLUB him!!! But, we don't do members a favor at the Chapter level by being more lenient that what they can expect to encounter at a Regional/National.

But, come on now...'crowd pleaser' items that are popular at a local show 'n shine (fuzzy dice from the mirror, a Teletray hanging from the side window glass, mirrors on the ground along the chassis rails, Etc.) just aren't appropriate at NCRS. And, yes, I include driver support items like garage door opener, air pressure gauge, spare change in the ash tray, the owner's sun glasses, Etc. in that list.

The removal of items like this is simply part of the owner's task of readying the car for placement on the Judging Field. It's just as much a part of that 'get ready' task as pulling out floor mats and cleaning the car up are.

[Roy B.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

Jack I'm not saying your wrong by stating I hope you never judge my 55 and hope you know I never meant anything personally. I drive my 55 all the time and have entered it only three times in (30 years) never thinking or wonting any award but to support NCRS with revenue and have people see that they can drive a Corvette and still keep it nice. Both times I've told judges to do their thing with out any worry from me. I'm having my 55 judged at Ben Or. This year just to be more involved because I like going to Ben Or. You rarely see a 55 and again any judge that's going to judge my 55 score it any way they see fit, if it get no flights so be it.

When we travel a long distance we take our tear drop trailer

[Terry M.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

Roy,
Why wouldn't you remove the extra mats and fuzzy dice before judging? Unless you have bolted them in, there is no problem removing them. And one ought to clean the butts and/or spare change out of the ash tray, just for GPs.

I once judged a pair of Corvettes from the same "collection" and we made a deduction for the spider webs, and a little more for the living spider. That is what "overall cleanliness" is for.

[Roy B.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

Terry!!
I'm not saying I don't remove items , Yes I do clean the vett and remove personal things (I have no dice) but my accessories stay on or in . I'm not pushing anyone out of the 55 class for judging because again you rarely see a 55. You can say I entered it just to show it , not to get an award .
Is that a bad thing to do for some members??? I support NCRS all the way but need no pedigree award. I tell judges not to get under it because I drive it (oily) .
I know many people will not like this , but always thought NCRS should have a separate class for driven Corvettes.
That would bring many-many Corvettes over from SACC (which many are NCRS members) that have a 75% or more original Corvette and only add to Corvette enthusiast people for NCRS. I know NCRS is the high water mark, but people come and go after they get Duntov. The membership would grow four times it's size. But it's only a dream.

[Terry M.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

Terry!!
I'm not saying I don't remove items , Yes I do clean the vett and remove personal things (I have no dice) but my accessories stay on or in . I'm not pushing anyone out of the 55 class for judging because again you rarely see a 55. You can say I entered it just to show it , not to get an award .
Is that a bad thing to do for some members??? I support NCRS all the way but need no pedigree award. I tell judges not to get under it because I drive it (oily) .
I know many people will not like this , but always thought NCRS should have a separate class for driven Corvettes.
That would bring many-many Corvettes over from SACC (which many are NCRS members) that have a 75% or more original Corvette and only add to Corvette enthusiast people for NCRS. I know NCRS is the high water mark, but people come and go after they get Duntov. The membership would grow four times it's size. But it's only a dream.

[Roy B.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

Frustrations is the word and I agree with you all the way, thanks for talking it out with me

[Jack H.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

ALWAYS a PLEASURE, Roy!!!

[Frederick W.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

Thanks for the discussion, guys.

I wish we didn't have to make a decision between getting a prestigious NCRS award and having an enjoyable driver.

I think a category of driven Corvettes would be great, but it sounds like that is an argument that has been made before and has been decided against.

Fred

[Richard M.]

Re: Aftermarket components and NCRS

Fred,

2 1/2 years ago my wife and I drove from Florida to Virginia in Dec 07 to check out a 63 swc, original 300 hp PG. We bought it, rented a U-haul and took it home. Our first C2. The car was for her. It had aftermarket AC and upgraded 67 style power front disks, and power steering added by the PO's.
You remember the car on the CFFS forum....We spoke about yours after that.

We took it to Kissimmee for the Regional, at the urges of some of the folks here to get it checked out for Star Awards(not Flighted). Much of the car was original, other than the added items. It had 67,400 original documented titled miles. I also took my 59(owned 23 yrs then) with a 61 block for Flight Judging. I drove the 59, wife drove the 63, it was 100 miles or so.

The 63 had to go in with the flighted cars to be checked out for potential Star Awards. It was judged just like a flighted car, but no points, just pass/fail. It was a bit rough, some flaking 45 year old paint, but everyone there was so interested in looking at it. It drew much attention because it was quite original, unrestored, even though a bit modified. After the analysis we realized it was not a candidate because of too many changes and modifications. Sure I could have changed everything back and gone for stars later, but we kept it with the extra equipment as-is, new interior, cleaned up the engine bay, and had fun with the car. We put over 10,000 miles on it until it sold a few months ago.

Ok, Ok I'll get to the point. IMHO...........
Take the car as-is. Don't go to just try to get a Top Flight. Go there to have fun. Go there to learn, and above all go there to meet some great people and see some great cars. Let it be judged the way it is and you can learn more about it, then decide if TF is what you really want. Go there and people will check the car and see just how original all the other stuff is, and they will learn. If I was there I'd be all over it too, to learn and have fun.
If you want to guarantee a Top Flight, remove the AC, get the original heater box($$$), change the wheels back, spend more money, and then you'll have to undo it all afterwards to get back to the way you really want it.

BTW, I just missed 2nd flight in my 59, but I had a blast. I was happy to walk away with a 3rd Flight, knowing I learned much and had a great time. In fact, I even brought out some wrong things about the car that some of the judges missed. Other ones beat me up pretty bad, but I smiled and said "do what you gotta do." Attitude is what it's all about. Go with the right attitude and you'll enjoy yourself. I went for the fun, not just the ribbon. Would I do it that way again, absolutely.

On the other hand, my next car will be a Top Flight candidate, whatever that is.... I haven't found it yet. I will do it just for that, from scratch. Then watch out, I'll be picky about everything!

Rich