GM Documentation; T. Michaelis ad (offer) in Hemmings

[Ronald L.]

Re: GM Documentation; T. Michaelis ad (offer) in Hemmings

The board of directors of NCRS owe a simple answer to the membership.

What documents did they get, origin, and what are we getting???



That will stop most of the speculation and or allow some of those faking cars to get out of town, bankrupt, close, or get good attorney's.

[Loren L.]

Re: GM Documentation; T. Michaelis ad (offer) in Hemmings

20 years ago, what I got from NICB was date of departure from St Louis and the name of the dealer it was being shipped to. And this was through a highly placed law enforcement official. Since then, I have also been told that they are purging their records because of age.

[Jim C.]

Re: GM Documentation; T. Michaelis ad (offer) in Hemmings

What's interesting to me is the fact that Mr. Michaelis is trying to obtain records from some former GM employee right around the same time the NCRS is getting ready to release records. Unfortunately we still don't know the source of the NCRS records or what they document. Mr. Armstrong said there was no build data in PA. Was there any delivery data there? So what's worth a million plus dollars to Mr. Michaelis? Delivery data?? Sure it would be good to know which dealership a particular Corvette started out at, but is that worth a million or more dollars? Build data might be more meaningful for many obvious reasons.

After reviewing a copy of the ad by Mr. Michaelis as posted above, I can't help but think that the former GM employee may have come into possession of the records without GM's knowledge. If such an individual exists, why would Mr. Michaelis front the guy out in public? Is he really trying to buy the records or just keep the former employee from selling them elsewhere? Will this have any impact on the records being advertised by NCRS?

It's very difficult to come to any conclusions without knowing the nature of these records (GM, NCRS, former employee, or otherwise) and their origins. I still don't see any legitimate reason for all the mystery.

[Paul J.]

Re: GM Documentation; T. Michaelis ad (offer) in Hemmings

I believe tampering with VIN tags is considered a federal or state law violation whereas stamped engine numbers are not addressed since engines are "consumeable" and/or replaceable.

Exactly! Cars are designated by thier VINs, which are attached to the frame or body. Nowadays, that location is specified, I believe by law.

Engines are an assembly of parts, and you can do anything you want with parts. If I hazard to guess, I believe that you are right Bruce that the logic of not regulating engines is that those parts wear and are normally replaced well before the frame. They are also more easily removable and repairable.

[Tracy C.]

Re: GM Documentation; T. Michaelis ad (offer) in Hemmings

What if a "business" had become filthy rich creating and selling bogus highly optioned Corvettes? Do you think someone affilated with said business would want to obtain the original build sheets of those very cars to say...protect the not so innocent?

Just a thought....

[Jim C.]

Re: GM Documentation; T. Michaelis ad (offer) in Hemmings

All I'd like to know are a few simple facts. The NCRS is advertising delivery documents. Great!! I'm very interested. What information does that include? The date the car was delivered to the dealership? The dealership name and address? The shipping weight? Does that information include anything about options that may have come with a specific car? I'd also like to know the origin of those documents.

I'm also VERY interested in Mr. Michaelis's ad. I think the timing of his ad, and the subtle references to decade old conversations, potential legal issues with GM and a lot of money are suspect to say the least. Unless I'm not understanding it correctly, the wording seems to put the former GM employee on the spot. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but the documents in question seem to have a "black market" stigma attached to them. It reminds me of incidents where rare and valuable paintings end up in private collections but were last known to the world in museum collections until they were "lost" somehow. Those sorts of paintings can never be sold again on the open market. If some one really wanted to buy those documents, and their origins were potentially questionable, would he advertise those facts to the public, or just privately negotiate for them? The whole scenario leaves me to wonder......

If there is some informative and potentially valuable set of documents in the hands of some former GM employee, perhaps the best course of action would be to return them to GM Hertiage. Perhaps GM would adopt a no harm, no foul attitude. If money starts changing hands, it could be a totally different ball game.

Again, there's just not enough information. Is there really a former GM employee who has some Corvette treasure trove of records? If so, what's the nature and origin of such records? Are there legal issues involving their dissemination / sale? Are they worth one million dollars? Why? Is there any connection between those records and those being offered by the NCRS?

Interesting stuff.

Jim C.

[John H.]

Re: GM Documentation; T. Michaelis ad (offer) in Hemmings

Guys, get serious - this myth about the "missing/hidden/secret/classified Corvette and muscle car build sheets" has persisted for decades, and so has Terry Michaelis' offer to purchase them.

GM built 26,000 cars and trucks EVERY DAY in the 60's - do you have any idea how much paper that is? You'd need the Rose Bowl to store them.

This issue pops up every couple of years, and generates conspiracy theories not unlike those in July, 1969, that claimed the Moon Landing was faked on a Hollywood sound stage.

[Robert R.]

Re: GM Documentation; T. Michaelis ad (offer) in Hemmings

John that did happen.
Only it was the Mars landing and OJ was part of the crew that didn't make it out alive.

[William H.]

Re: GM Documentation; T. Michaelis ad (offer) in Hemmings

I guess I'm missing the point. How could GM be sued? They have done nothing wrong. The so called records would just verify something that already happend. In my opinion any records will benefit the hobby.

[Chris H.]

Re: GM Documentation; T. Michaelis ad (offer) in Hemmings

Assumption here is that GM could sue the person "selling"/giving out data that was GM restricted. He should not have that data and should not be making money on it per GM employee rules that we signed.

But I really, really doubt GM would bother to sue for data that is 50 years old and consists of build data. I know many of us have old drawings that are also GM restricted but no one is going to ever go after us.

The reason GM may be concerned about GM restricted data being in lawyers hands is if it showed GM made revisions to a part or build of a vehicle and the lawyer could prove that the change was made for safety reasons and GM did not recall the older cars with the "defective" parts. We have seen that with cases like the saddle tanks on pick ups. But again we are talking 50 year old vehicles with very few on the road. I doubt the lawyers could ever make enough money to be worth it. But then again if a lawyer could find the right person (somebody in a wheel chair for 50 years) they could go after GM.

[Edward M.]

Re: GM Documentation; T. Michaelis ad (offer) in Hemmings

Guys, get serious - this myth about the "missing/hidden/secret/classified Corvette and muscle car build sheets" has persisted for decades, and so has Terry Michaelis' offer to purchase them.

GM built 26,000 cars and trucks EVERY DAY in the 60's - do you have any idea how much paper that is? You'd need the Rose Bowl to store them.

This issue pops up every couple of years, and generates conspiracy theories not unlike those in July, 1969, that claimed the Moon Landing was faked on a Hollywood sound stage.

What conspiracy? It is a known fact that the moon landing was actually faked by the gunman from the grassy knoll, who was in fact Martin Borman.

[Donald O.]

Re: GM Documentation; T. Michaelis ad (offer) in Hemmings

What conspiracy? It is a known fact that the moon landing was actually faked by the gunman from the grassy knoll, who was in fact Martin Borman.

Sha zammmmm Sgt Carter. I had been told that it was Elvis on the grassy knoll by a very high ranking, never to be named source.

[Jim C.]

Re: GM Documentation; T. Michaelis ad (offer) in Hemmings

Yeah, build sheets and specific vehicle data probably don't exist anymore. They may have existed at one time or another. I wonder if there ever was a time in the past where vehicle delivery data didn't exist either? I guess it doesn't exist until someone finds it. Stories like this can certainly generate a lot of interest. I suppose it creates a few schools of thought:

1. Those who think the records could possibly exist somewhere.

2. Those who think they're long gone.

3. Those who hope and pray that they never turn up and no one is looking for them!!!!

[Larry E.]

Re: GM Documentation; T. Michaelis ad (offer) in Hemmings

Jim: You forgot one option:

Just my opinon: I don't believe the "Mother Load" exist anymore but do
believe there are "Pockets" of info. eg. 1966 VIN/Option info of a certain
VIN's in sequence that was somehow "smuggled" out of the factory. Even
these "Pockets" would provide good info. When they where "smuggled" out
the value may not have even been know at the time. I heard that some
employees at factories take some reams of "useless info" paper to be use as nothing more
then "scratch" paper.
Larry

[G A.]

Re: GM Documentation; T. Michaelis ad (offer) in Hemmings

Two questions for those of you seeming to imply in this thread that Proteam is trying to shelter any GM documentation to conceal counterfeiting on their part.

1. Proteam has been in business for how long? 20+ years is my guess, I don't know "Terry" and have never dealt with Proteam.

2. Proteam has probably employed hundreds of technicians over those years.

3. Said employees would certainly have knowledge of Proteam counterfeits and likely realize the dollar value of their knowledge via litigation.

Question 1: Have any Proteam employees stepped forward to reap the rewards of their knowledge?

Question 2: Where does the animosity towards Proteam come from?