Top Flight & Bow Tie Questions � unrestored or ???

[Thom W.]

[Reba W.]

[William G.]

[Mike G.]

[Patrick H.]

Greetings,

I am wrestling with the same issues on a '66 Bow Tie coupe which I recently purchased. I'm not the kind that can leave things needing attention unattended to--and with a C2 there are likely to be many more things needing attention than with a C4. I probably should sell this car for another which I can "fiddle with", but I also have great respect for a car which has not been molested. Quite a dilemma--believe me. Sometimes I wish I had never heard of the NCRS term "Bow Tie". I could, without much difficulty, make this car virtually 100 percent numbers matching and, except for such things as exhaust, brake calipers, tires, and shocks, virtually indistinguishable from new by anyone other than high level judges. What to do?--I do like originality, but I also cannot keep my hands off of items which need "sprucing up". I don't believe the manifolds and water pump have ever been off this engine in 44 1/2 years!

Bill

It's only original once.

The vast majority of the parts have never been off my 72 either, and it looks like it. However, it will stay this way as long as I (and my kids) own it.

Patrick

[Bill M.]

[Reba W.]

after receiving a Bowtie Award. To get both a Star/Bowtie and a Mark-of-Excellence designation, the Flight judging must come first. Doing a frame-off resoration invalidates the Bowtie Award.

From the Judging Reference Manual:

An owner wishing an attempt at achieving both an NCRS Mark-of-Excellence Award and NCRS Chevrolet Bowtie Awards with the same car may do so ONLY in accordance with one of the following:

A. At separate National Conventions: Mark-of-Excellence Award first, Bowtie Award second.
B. If Bowtie Award is achieved first, Mark-of-Excellence Judging at a subsequent National Conventions will require appropriate Divisional National Team Leader invitation.
C. At the same Convention: Both Duntov/McLellan and Bowtie Judging will be conducted separately during the same event.
D. Surrender of the NCRS Chevrolet Bowtie Award and simultaneous judging of both Bowtie and Mark-of-Excellence

[Thom W.]

I'm going from memory, but the C4 is eligible for Crossed Flags as I recall, not Bowtie. A C4 has to get a 97% Top Flight and PV to qualify for the McLellan; than another 97% for the McLellan. Then it's eligible for Crossed Flags.

Crossed Flags, You are correct sir! {in my Johnny Carson voice}
　
So to add to my questions, how many miles driven vs. age is considered　when factoring these condition issues.　In my example, she was a daily driver for one year and then carefully warehouse stored for 20 some years. So with almost 15k miles on this C4, how is that going to weight in for me on Top Flight and Crossed Flags now?
　
Many folks are telling us not to put more than 200 miles per year on her just to retain the high the value. Which she professionally appraise very high (and this one has some rare exceptions... history from the original purchaser being a GM chief engineer, rare two-tone color combo, it's in showroom condition with just a few exceptions, etc.)
　
But like the others are saying it's so tough on which line to walk, either make her absolutely perfect. Keep her unrestored and I think it will make　97%. Or add some careful miles to get that score up, but then that decreases the value.　However, having Top flight & Crossed Flags could outweight the few extra miles. OIY VEY!
　
I'm going to order the judging manual document this weekend, but does it cover these mileage issues?

Thanks everyone for your help. As I'm sure a lot you can relate - this is more than just a car to us, she's become family.

[Patrick H.]

So to add to my questions, how many miles driven vs. age is considered　when factoring these condition issues.　In my example, she was a daily driver for one year and then carefully warehouse stored for 20 some years. So with almost 15k miles on this C4, how is that going to weight in for me on Top Flight and Crossed Flags now? .

Thom,

Mileage makes no difference. Zero. Nada. None. It doesn't matter if there are 4 miles on the car or 400,000; the standard for Bowtie/Crossed Flags judging is the same:

Is this the part (not could it be, but is it really) that was installed at the factory?

Yes or No?

Every item is judged on that alone. There is an age factor that is added into your score after the judges have all scored your car (factored by section, as chassis/mechanical tend to have more items replaced over time). If your car passes all 4 areas, then the judges sit down and determine if the car is good enough to be an example of "factory original" and receive the award. Only cars that pass in all 4 areas and receive the "thumbs up" from all 4 judging teams will receive the award.

Note that, as mentioned elsewhere, 84-and-up cars must first receive a McLellan Award before they can receive the Crossed Flags Award.

Patrick

[Bill M.]

I'm going to order the judging manual document this weekend, but does it cover these mileage issues?

You should order:

Judging Reference Manual
87-89 Technical Information and Judging Guide
84-89 Operations and Performance Verification Test Guide

[John M.]

Mileage makes no difference. Zero. Nada. None. It doesn't matter if there are 4 miles on the car or 400,000; the standard for Bowtie/Crossed Flags judging is the same.

Ah, but the odds of getting the prerequisite McClellan with an untouched high mileage C4 are essentially zero, making Crossed Flags for relatively low mileage cars only. That's a big difference relative to the 1982 and older cars and one I still don't quite understand.

[Ed H.]

[Bill M.]

Ah, but the odds of getting the prerequisite McClellan with an untouched high mileage C4 are essentially zero, making Crossed Flags for relatively low mileage cars only. That's a big difference relative to the 1982 and older cars and one I still don't quite understand.

Here's a quote from Patrick Hulst re. the McLellan/Hill as a prerequisite to Crossed Flags:

"I believe it was addressed in a previous Restorer (hint) but in a nutshell the C4 and later cars are lasting longer and people are caring for them differently. They cost more initially and generally were not "run hard and put away wet" nearly as much as the C1-to-mid-C3 years were. As a result there are a lot of them that would qualify just on the unrestored designation. So, to be sure that only the best receive the award, the McLellan qualification was added."

[Pat M.]

Ah, but the odds of getting the prerequisite McClellan with an untouched high mileage C4 are essentially zero, making Crossed Flags for relatively low mileage cars only. That's a big difference relative to the 1982 and older cars and one I still don't quite understand.

I agree. I've been told it's because C4s were better taken care of - which I don't quite understand either. So more C4s may garner the unrestored award than previous gens - what's wrong with that?

[Thom W.]

You should order:

Judging Reference Manual
87-89 Technical Information and Judging Guide
84-89 Operations and Performance Verification Test Guide

Thanks Bill, that's just what I ordered! Hoping it take less than 30 days as it says on the order confrimation so I can get ready for Orlando this year.

Just got my edition of the Restorer Mag and it has an explanation by Roy Sinor of the Top Flight process that is the best written and most clear I've seen to date. Answers some of the questions I had about miles and etc.