Top Flight & Bow Tie Questions � unrestored or ???

[Thom W.]

I agree. I've been told it's because C4s were better taken care of - which I don't quite understand either. So more C4s may garner the unrestored award than previous gens - what's wrong with that?

From what I'm seeing at the shows and online, people are customizing the heck out of them and riding the C4's pretty darn rough compared to mine and only a couple of others. They are being told values are so low - go ahead use them as daily drivers. So the miles are stacking up 70k to well over 100k very quickly. Road wear and sun damage shows up very fast on C4's, seems rubbers and plastics are some of the first to go. I watch Ebay and all the auctions pretty closely and the percentage of well kept, low miles is fairly small from what I would expect. Good for we owners that have the gems I suppose.

[John M.]

Here's a quote from Patrick Hulst re. the McLellan/Hill as a prerequisite to Crossed Flags:

"I believe it was addressed in a previous Restorer (hint) but in a nutshell the C4 and later cars are lasting longer and people are caring for them differently. They cost more initially and generally were not "run hard and put away wet" nearly as much as the C1-to-mid-C3 years were. As a result there are a lot of them that would qualify just on the unrestored designation. So, to be sure that only the best receive the award, the McLellan qualification was added."

Very arbitrary and perhaps from a Restorer before I joined, though I could have missed it. Why doesn't this apply to (for example) 1978 Pace Cars? Also, the run-up in base prices really began in 1975. Between that year and 1989, there was only one year (1979) that didn't have an increased base price when adjusted for inflation. The same applies for cars with common equipment, except that run-up ended in 1988.

[Rick A.]

[Thom W.]

One HUGE item folks forgot to mention when attempting to attain the Mark of Excellence, Hill, Bowtie awards - WHAT EDUCATIONAL VALUE will this car bring to the hobby if the award is presented to the car???? That is the total basis for the award

ahhhh...good to know. I hadn't heard this point before. So do you think a historical link to a GM Chief Engineer being first owner and special ordering the car a good factor? I have a lot proof, but with privacy laws these days it's harder to trace to the actual plant & shift.

[Rick A.]

[Bill M.]

Very arbitrary and perhaps from a Restorer before I joined, though I could have missed it. Why doesn't this apply to (for example) 1978 Pace Cars? Also, the run-up in base prices really began in 1975. Between that year and 1989, there was only one year (1979) that didn't have an increased base price when adjusted for inflation. The same applies for cars with common equipment, except that run-up ended in 1988.

I'll guess that there are more pristine C4s because the summer tires made driving the C4 in the winter a beach.

[Jack H.]

[Bill M.]

ahhhh...good to know. I hadn't heard this point before. So do you think a historical link to a GM Chief Engineer being first owner and special ordering the car a good factor? I have a lot proof, but with privacy laws these days it's harder to trace to the actual plant & shift.

If there are any areas that are not typical of normal production (because of a special order by the original owner), it is up to you to document that they were installed at Bowling Green. Your documentation would be important if that happens.

[John M.]

I'll guess that there are more pristine C4s because the summer tires made driving the C4 in the winter a beach.

My C4 is less than pristine - it lived the first 20 years of its life parked outdoors on the Oregon coast.

My ox is not gored here: I knew from the get-go that my (wonderful/lovely/adored) 1985 was almost certainly not going to be Bowtie (what they were discussing when I first joined) or Crossed Flags (what they ended up with) car, despite some of its undeniable interest as an early true EFI example (and the accompanying problems).

What I don't see is why someone with a 100,000 mile 1984 has basically no chance of getting a Crossed Flags while someone with a 100,000 mile 1982 has at least some reasonable chance of getting a Bowtie - mostly because they have one less gate to pass through. I don't believe that your average 1982 Collector Edition (almost all the 1982s we see) was ridden harder than your average 1984 - and I don't believe anyone has any data to disprove me.

[Rick A.]

[Rick A.]

[Jack H.]

[Thom W.]

The general NCRS policy is the burden of proof falls on the owner when it comes to aspects of a car that fall outside 'typical' factory production.

In the case of a 'special', that shouldn't be too hard to document on a Bowling Green car. If I remember correctly the factory production records DO exist for these cars and copies are available via the National Corvette Museum...

I did get the build sheets and price sheets from NCM which shows special order status, and even have the business cards from the original sales people (stuck in the owner's manual) from the dealership where he took delivery in Flint, Michigan.

[John H.]

[Reba W.]

Judging Reference Manual.