Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

[Scott S.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

The acid bath will not remove oil and grease, and it won't remove paint.

Generally, the plater's process will have a very hot, strong detergent (Oakite) bath to remove oil and grease before the acid bath, which is really only intended to remove minor surface rust that may form between fabrication and plating.

Your best bet is to have your fasteners and parts PERFECTLY CLEAN before you take them to the plater. Your plater is not going to clean the rust off your parts.

Acid cleaning is likely to provide the smoothest surface for plating. Wire brushing will also keep a smooth surface smooth, but be careful to avoid "brush marks" and sworls from the wheel. Bead blasting will yield a matte finish after plating, even if the original part was smooth.

Thanks Chuck, I've never done this before so I'm grateful for the information. I will clean everything thoroughly. Is there a particular type of brass wire-wheel that is good for this kind of usage? I can pick one up at the hardware store, but they will probably have a hundred different kinds to choose from.

[Rich P.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

Thanks Chuck, I've never done this before so I'm grateful for the information. I will clean everything thoroughly. Is there a particular type of brass wire-wheel that is good for this kind of usage? I can pick one up at the hardware store, but they will probably have a hundred different kinds to choose from.

Scott,


Medium or fine, a coarse brass wire wheel will act lust like a steel wire wheel.

Rich

[Rich P.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

"Is there a supplier who has bolts with the original configuration?"

Mike,

just about every repro bolt has differences from originals that if placed side by side would be very evident. Unless you want to spend time verifying original headmarkings and then going to a junkyard to find them you can use a few sources. Some NCRS members advertise in the driveline and there are also online auctions for original hardware. Just be careful of the online auctions unless it clearly states that the parts are original they are repros.
Another thing you need to know is over the years the manufactures changed/updated the tooling and the headmarkings changed over the years. As an example ther are 15-20 different head markings for a 5/16-18 recessed head bolt with the anchor logo.

Rich

[Scott S.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

Scott,


Medium or fine, a coarse brass wire wheel will act lust like a steel wire wheel.

Rich

Thanks Rich!

[Scott S.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

Is there a trick for getting the soft-cloth polishing wheel off of the right hand side?

I was able to remove the solid grinding wheel on the left side without difficulty, but the polishing cloth wheel won't budge. I can put a wire-wheel on the left-hand side where the grinding wheel used to be, but I'm right handed and it would be easier to use the right-hand side for the next 100 hours of cleaning fasteners.

Is there a trick to removing the cloth wheel, or do I just use more force until it breaks the wheel hub, if necessary?

[Michael G.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

Rich,

Head marking is not an exact science. In making a fastener, the head marking is formed during heading process. It is formed by the "punch", a part of the heading tooling. Punches wear out frequently. Each new punch has a depression that fills to form the head marking. The depression is made in the proper shape by the tool maker. In the 50's, 60's and 70's, the process for making that shape was was very inexact, so, every time the punch was changed the head marking became slightly different. For that reason, a given box of bolts could very well contain two very different versions of the same head marking, as well as slight variations to the head. Certainly, a large run of fasteners would have several slight variations to both.

Any head marking that is even similar to the intended one is possibly correct, it cannot be assumed to be a repop just because it varies slightly from one that has been documented. If you know anything about fastener manufacturing, to judge one shape and say that is the only possible one used on a particular year or option of a Corvette, is patently absurd.

There, I've finally said it, I feel better.

[Chuck S.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

Is there a trick for getting the soft-cloth polishing wheel off of the right hand side?...

Be aware that one side of a double-ended grinder shaft has left hand threads to prevent the wheel from loosening up while you work. I don't remember which side of mine is left-handed, and it would depend on the direction of motor rotation anyway.

One other comment...I would not recommend a brass wire wheel for cleaning steel parts. Brass is softer, and less likely to damage your parts, but you're not likely to "damage" steel parts with a steel wire wheel anyway. I suppose it's possible to damage fasteners and parts, but it will take a grinder with more horsepower than mine (3/4 hp)...mine constantly kicks out on thermal overload with mild cleaning.

The problem with brass wire wheels is that the friction and heat causes the softer brass to transfer to steel parts being cleaned. Steel parts cleaned with a brass wire wheel will have a yellowish color to them. I would just as soon not add any foreign non-ferrous metal to the surface of parts I'm having plated.

[Rich P.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

Mike,

I agree with with the different tooling. As far as picking a repro from original I can assure you there are vast differences in 95% of the repros. I have thousands of pictures of originals and hundreds of thousands of original bolts.
Repros have a much more limited run than production bolts and the dies have not worn sufficently to alter the headmarkings.
These are 63-67 examples...If you put a repro WB alternator adjusting bolt next to a original the difference is easy to spot the repro bolts mark looks like the Warnes Brothers logo. WB grade 8 front bumper to crossmember bracket bolts are another example. the grade lines on the repros are not evenly spaced and the WB is a completly different font. The E hood hinge bolt has gone through no less than 2 different stampings the earliiest ones were the closest the only difference was a small raised dot to the right of the E the newest ones have a completly different headmarking and the pinch point is a smooth cone and not sheared. I could go on and on just ask any midyear to 74ish bolt and I could tell you if the repro is good or bad.
I just happend to take notice of the bolts as I was working on these cars over the past 28 years, and I was fortunate enought to work on many many untouched cars. As you can see bolts are one of my passions.

Rich

[John H.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

THe build up of a bumper is a follows, copper, then nickel which gives the hardness and majority of corrosion protection (is yellowish and not shiny) and then chrome, blueish and bright, shiny.

Ron -

I don't think you'll find any copper on an original Chevy bumper; I spent a fair amount of time at Chevrolet-Livonia Spring & Bumper, where they were made, and never saw any copper anodes, tanks, or copper-colored anything in process.

The bumpers were stamped and fabricated, metal-finished at the weld joints, then rough-polished, and went into the plating process; once they were cleaned and pickled, they got nickel, then chrome, and went into the shipping racks. We're used to seeing the copper under-plate on show chrome parts we send out, but GM didn't bother with copper (which requires removal from the plating process for polishing before it goes back into the rest of the plating process).

Livonia made about 30,000 bumpers every day - that was a LOT of nickel and chrome.

[Michael G.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

Chuck,

We buff fasteners with brass wire all day long to remove coatings, in order to inspect "as manufactured" thread shape. We found that steel wire wheels remove base metal and dull thread peaks. Sometimes it takes a lot of pressure and buffing with brass to get paint off, but the fastener is intact when we're done and its surface finish has not been altered.

And yes, a slight residue of brass remains, but the brass can be removed with very light steel wheel buffing, without dimpling the steel surface or removing base metal.

[Michael G.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

Rich,

I agree that some of the repro's are very bad. As with the WB parts, their basic shape is often wrong.

My point was that real parts vary according to to the whims of the tool maker, by quite a lot. The variations in the Anchor logo you mention were not necessarily "planned", most were probably just one guy's best effort that day to match the logo. Many of the real variations were not intended; many times the punch would load up with crud and the mark would go away, or part of the mark would load up and a weird shape would result These are normal everyday happenings. Most Fastener companies did not even inspect to see if the logo was intact or correct.

While you have obviously taken a great interest in this and possibly have seen all of the real variations, I doubt two other people in the hobby could look at every fastener and make that expert a judgement. My advice to judges would be, unless the fastener varies significantly from the expected part, or, you know for a fact the part is an example of a known repop, don't assume its incorrect.

[Rich P.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

Michael,

here is an example of a 63-74 ground strap bolt. I bet even you can guess which is the repro. Seriously this is for the most part how easy it is to pick out a repro bolt.

Rich

[Michael G.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

That's easy, the repro is that thing the two bolts are resting on, its nothing like the others.....

[Rich P.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

Very good come back..I love sarcasam!!!. Seriously though I have the easy job of monday morning quarterbacking and just comparing bolts to see the difference. You had the hard job of making them safe!!!

I think that it would be pretty easy to do a picture catalouge to show real bolts that could educate judges as to whats real. After all the object of the NCRS is to always improve the judging process to continually bring the level of restorations up.

Rich

[Michael G.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

Rich,

Great idea. That'd save the average restorer a heck of a lot of headaches worrying about whether his radiator bolts should have an "L" or "E" or "WB", or "NFG" (I don't think that last one's real).

I don't know that much about what's correct but I'd be glad to help.