Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

[Joe R.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

I think that it would be pretty easy to do a picture catalouge to show real bolts that could educate judges as to whats real.

Rich

Rich,

That sounds like a great idea to me!

Joe

[Scott S.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

Be aware that one side of a double-ended grinder shaft has left hand threads to prevent the wheel from loosening up while you work. I don't remember which side of mine is left-handed, and it would depend on the direction of motor rotation anyway.

Hi Chuck,

On this particular old bench grinder, it's the LH side that has the reverse Threads, I don't know if that's standard or not. Motor rotation spins the wheels downward.

The polisher/buffer wheel that was on there won't pull off, it has to unscrew the entire length of the shaft, after the nut is removed. There are no threads in the hub of the buffer wheel, but it has a thin edge that causes it to work like a nut on the threaded shaft. Must be a very unusual thing!

One other comment...I would not recommend a brass wire wheel for cleaning steel parts. Brass is softer, and less likely to damage your parts, but you're not likely to "damage" steel parts with a steel wire wheel anyway. I suppose it's possible to damage fasteners and parts, but it will take a grinder with more horsepower than mine (3/4 hp)...mine constantly kicks out on thermal overload with mild cleaning.

The problem with brass wire wheels is that the friction and heat causes the softer brass to transfer to steel parts being cleaned. Steel parts cleaned with a brass wire wheel will have a yellowish color to them. I would just as soon not add any foreign non-ferrous metal to the surface of parts I'm having plated.

Would any brass residue left on the bolts from using a brass wire-wheel be removed during the pre-plating acid-dip?

[Chuck S.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

...Would any brass residue left on the bolts from using a brass wire-wheel be removed during the pre-plating acid-dip?

I don't know how brass would respond to the acid dip. Perhaps the smear trace would be removed. My decision was that I didn't need to experiment to find trouble.

[Lawrence S.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

Hi Michael,

I have no idea which fasteners are cadmium and which are zinc, I have hundreds of labeled bags of fasteners and most are corroded (43-year old Ohio car, originally from Philadelphia). The entire car is disassembled and I have been cleaning and handling all of the fasteners in preparation for re-plating.

For removing rust, I have been using a liquid solution called "Evapo-Rust", which seems to do a very good job removing rust from chrome fasteners without damaging the chrome (leave them submerged for a day or two). Works okay on other surfaces, unless the rust is deep.

The "Evapo-Rust" is non-toxic, and gets all over my hands (along with whatever it has dissolved, probably including cadmium) regularly. Since the Evapo-Rust is non-toxic, I have been using it indoors. It sounds like if some of the fasteners I've been working with were cadmium plated (some probably are), I may have created a dangerous situation, both to myself and the house. If someone could explain what kind of danger I may have been exposed to, and what to do about it, I would appreciate it.




The "Evapo-Rust" works better on some fasteners than others, I wasn't too concerned about it since all the (non-chrome) fasteners will be acid-dipped by the plater prior to re-plating anyway, until I read your comments about cleaning them thoroughly before acid-dipping. Won't the acid-dip take care of any paint and rust, or are there other reasons to use a brass wire-wheel on everything before re-plating?

This is my first time doing most of these things, and I don't know what I don't know. I research what I can, and the rest is by trial and error.

Thanks,
Scott

Scott I used evap o rust on many fasteners when I restored my 69 Z/28. I had very good luck with that product. I used a brass hand brush to clean the fasteners, but usually that removed all the black phosphate. I noticed that once the fasteners sat in the solution for a day or so if you pulled the fastener out of the product they were black like they had been re phosphated. I rinsed the fasteners and then redunked them as the instructions said then let them dry. When dry they had dried black solution (evap or rust with old black phosphate and remnants of rust) on them which was supposed to prevent rust, and since it was black it resembled black phosphate. I did not worry too much about it since my car will not see rain.

Good luck

[Michael G.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

Chuck and Scott:

As I mentioned below, a very light buffing with a steel wire wheel will take off the residual brass, without damage to the surface of the steel. I don't think acid will dissolve the brass, but haven't tried that.

[Scott S.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

Scott I used evap o rust on many fasteners when I restored my 69 Z/28. I had very good luck with that product. I used a brass hand brush to clean the fasteners, but usually that removed all the black phosphate. I noticed that once the fasteners sat in the solution for a day or so if you pulled the fastener out of the product they were black like they had been re phosphated. I rinsed the fasteners and then redunked them as the instructions said then let them dry. When dry they had dried black solution (evap or rust with old black phosphate and remnants of rust) on them which was supposed to prevent rust, and since it was black it resembled black phosphate. I did not worry too much about it since my car will not see rain.

Good luck

Thanks for the reply Lawrence, I have had good results with that product too, especially for light rust or rust in difficult to reach places. Sometimes have to get creative in order to submerge the rusted spot on a part without wasting too much of the liquid. It cleaned up both of my vertical ignition shields very well, one of them almost looks new again. It did a great job on my chrome oil-fill tube (L79), the crease under the fitting for the PCV valve was thick with rust but the Evapo Rust took care of it and didn't hurt the chrome layer.

[Scott S.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

Chuck and Scott:

As I mentioned below, a very light buffing with a steel wire wheel will take off the residual brass, without damage to the surface of the steel. I don't think acid will dissolve the brass, but haven't tried that.

I appreciate everyone's comments, pro and con, brass vs. steel, etc. Just about everything I'm doing on this restoration is a first-time experience, and I'm always interested in learning. A numbers-matching 1967 Corvette is probably not the ideal candidate for me to be experimenting on

So a lot of the questions I ask are as much about how not to ruin something as they are about how to do something right. I am trying to solve the problem of how to prepare several thousand fasteners for replating (how to sort them all out and put them back into their labeled zip-lock bags when they come back from the plater is the next problem). I didn't realize I needed to clean all of the fasteners until I found this Thread, I thought the acid-dip would clean everything like new (it sure did that when we had the frame dipped, but it was some kind of non-caustic solution, not acid).

Each fastener (or set of fasteners) is currently in a labeled zip-lock bag. Apparently I need to remove them and individually clean each one, and a wire-wheel seems to be the best method. A tumbler would take too long, and I don't have a blasting cabinet. I can do the wire-wheel, if I can just find the right wheel. Today I went to Sears Hardware, Ace Hardware, Meijer and Home Depot. Apparently I live in a brass wire-wheel free zone (they're not "free", I just mean there aren't any).

If I was just cleaning a few odd bolts here and there, cleaning them with a medium or fine brass wire-wheel and then adding the extra step of changing out the wire-wheel to a medium or fine steel wire-wheel for buffing to remove any brass residue would be no problem. With several thousand fasteners to clean (however many were on the car, that's how many I have to clean), it amounts to doing the whole car's worth of fasteners twice.

Is there a better way to do this?

[Chuck S.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

Chuck and Scott:

As I mentioned below, a very light buffing with a steel wire wheel will take off the residual brass, without damage to the surface of the steel. I don't think acid will dissolve the brass, but haven't tried that.

I suspected that was true, but didn't know for sure.

...If I was just cleaning a few odd bolts here and there, cleaning them with a medium or fine brass wire-wheel and then adding the extra step of changing out the wire-wheel to a medium or fine steel wire-wheel for buffing to remove any brass residue would be no problem. With several thousand fasteners to clean (however many were on the car, that's how many I have to clean), it amounts to doing the whole car's worth of fasteners twice.

Is there a better way to do this?

I already told you the better way to avoid wire brushing them twice...skip the brass brush.

As you get into this fastener cleaning process, you are going to discover that wire brushing relatively short, small fasteners becomes problematic. You can not grip a small screw tight enough to wire brush anything but the head without the wire wheel ******ing it out of your hand, and flinging it at high velocity across your work space. You may find them again...maybe not. (Edit: The asteriks are for S N A T C H...this puritanical software inhibits communication using ordinary English!)

I haven't solved the small fastener cleaning problem yet, but I believe the safest, easiest route for very small screws (say smaller that 3/16" diameter, 3/4" long) is going to be bead blasting them in a purpose-built container; i.e. a can perforated with holes for the media to escape. Buy yourself a small bead blaster; restoration costs money...how well do you want to restore?

For phosphate finished screws, the bead blasting will make no difference in the final finished appearance. For small zinc plated screws that need to retain a smooth, shiny appearance, acid cleaning is the ticket. I wouldn't even bother wire brushing fasteners to be zinc plated...you're going to need the strip the zinc before replating anyway.

[Ronald L.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

John,

The difference in whether a bumper got the copper is either car line or time period. The mid size cars - Flint, Lansing, and Pontiac got copper under the nickel. I was never got down to Livonia, validating an original is pretty easy to do, and may also answer why the Corvette bumpers did not last very long, even the C2 service parts from the mid 70's had poor quality finish.


Later on, Michael, I used to reject your parts when they failed corrosion tests joking.

I have original Zn Corvette specific bolts from the period along side Cd and they will always be different. But then I already told you I have a trained eye, and you will know as well, being in the business, that a simple chemical test separated the two if someone was trying to pass off Zinc where Cad only was specified. now that would never happen would it?

As they age in a non corrosive environment, same thing.

For restoration of fasteners, media blast with proper NIOSH respirator. Any other method with potentially render the fastener brittle, I had too many of those too way back then.

Then separate them but he type of finish you want, and there are good shops that can do the plating, and post treat so you do not have hydrogen embrittlement.

[Dan D.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

I suspected that was true, but didn't know for sure.

I already told you the better way to avoid wire brushing them twice...skip the brass brush.

As you get into this fastener cleaning process, you are going to discover that wire brushing relatively short, small fasteners becomes problematic. You can not grip a small screw tight enough to wire brush anything but the head without the wire wheel ******ing it out of your hand, and flinging it at high velocity across your work space. You may find them again...maybe not. (Edit: The asteriks are for S N A T C H...this puritanical software inhibits communication using ordinary English!)

I haven't solved the small fastener cleaning problem yet, but I believe the safest, easiest route for very small screws (say smaller that 3/16" diameter, 3/4" long) is going to be bead blasting them in a purpose-built container; i.e. a can perforated with holes for the media to escape. Buy yourself a small bead blaster; restoration costs money...how well do you want to restore?

For phosphate finished screws, the bead blasting will make no difference in the final finished appearance. For small zinc plated screws that need to retain a smooth, shiny appearance, acid cleaning is the ticket. I wouldn't even bother wire brushing fasteners to be zinc plated...you're going to need the strip the zinc before replating anyway.

I too have the problem of cleaning fasteners. I use the wire wheel - have not found brass wheels either - so am using steel. What I do is screw a nut half way on a donor screw and then screw the fastener to be cleaned on to the nut and finger tighten. This allows the head and most of the shank to be cleaned with a fairly low probability of it becoming an RPG. Then remove the screw and clean the end using pliers on the head. This works pretty good on hardware 1/4" and larger. You still have the occasional rocket launching, but not too often. For small stuff, drill and tap holes in a block of metal and screw in the fastener. The head can then be wire wheeled. Good luck on the shank.
What is still a problem is how to keep track of them if you batch send them to a plater. The zip lock works good if you don't send them someplace, but I have not solved the problem when you loose track of them. One does not realize just how many fasteners there are in a car until you take them apart. -Dan-

[Rich P.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

The easiest way to wire wheel a small screw/washer/nut or bolt is to use a pair of pliers and grab the part, clean the exposed section, reposition the pliers to the clean section and clean the remaining sections. I glass bead my hardware then wire wheel it.
Another trick in bead blasting is to cut strips of heavy gauge plastic and drill holes in the plastic. Then you screw the fastener into the drilled holes and blast away.

But I found the best way to clean bulk fasteners is to hot tank to remove grease and paint then dip in muriatc acid and finally wash off in water to neutrlize the acid. Then I tap everything before going out for plating.

Rich

[Scott S.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

I suspected that was true, but didn't know for sure.

I already told you the better way to avoid wire brushing them twice...skip the brass brush.

Fine or medium for a steel wire-wheel, same as recommended for the brass?

I haven't solved the small fastener cleaning problem yet, but I believe the safest, easiest route for very small screws (say smaller that 3/16" diameter, 3/4" long) is going to be bead blasting them in a purpose-built container; i.e. a can perforated with holes for the media to escape. Buy yourself a small bead blaster; restoration costs money...how well do you want to restore?

As well as I can. I'm researching Bead-blasting cabinets now.

[Scott S.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

I glass bead my hardware then wire wheel it.

Hi Rich,

What additional benefit is gained by wire-wheeling after glass beading?

But I found the best way to clean bulk fasteners is to hot tank to remove grease and paint then dip in muriatc acid and finally wash off in water to neutrlize the acid. Then I tap everything before going out for plating.

Rich

I don't have a hot tank, but I can degrease and clean parts with Simple Green solution and a brush, and/or use Berryman B-9 Chem-Dip Carburetor & Parts Cleaner.

I have muriatic acid, is there a general guideline as far as how long it should be before the fasteners are removed from the acid?

Is there a difference between a tap-and-die set and a "thread-chaser" or Thread restorer set? I have read that a "thread restorer" set will not cut into existing threads, while a tap-and-die set will.

[Chuck S.]

Re: Correct fasteners and finding the "real" thing

Fine or medium for a steel wire-wheel, same as recommended for the brass?...

I doubt that retailers of tools will provide you so many choices of steel wire wheels, but either should work. I would probably opt for "medium" if given that as a choice...or...whatever they have with the right arbor hole size. If this sounds inexact, it's because it is...sometimes, you just have to try things and find out what you like.